Struggling with Dorothy Dunnett!

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

So I have re read Hilary Mantel’s Cromwell trilogy numerous times and I happened to see Dorothy Dunnett recommend if you like Mantel’s historical fiction. I had also finished all of Sharon K. Penmans books.
I have just started Game of Kings and I’m really finding it hard going ! I very rarely fail to finish a book, I read a lot of historical fiction and non fiction books and have read War and Peace three times(!) so I’m not always looking for a light read. I’m just finding the combination of Latin quotes, olde English and references to Greek mythology a bit too much to keep up with, Scottish slang I am fine with have a Scottish husband and spent a lot of time there. Is it worth persevering? I know people rave about her, I couldn’t even find any translations of the old English that prefixes each chapter.

Oh you have intrigued me now...

i read DD and DLS many times from a young age but the DD original hardbacks went to Oxfam a few years ago and the DLS with original yellow dust jackets are still metaphorically clutched to my bosom!

I think I have accepted that I am unlikely to re read the Dunnetts, which would have amazed me 30 or 40 (or 50) years ago. I lived and breathed them at the time and they gave me many happy hours for which I am grateful.

I am glad people are still enjoying them!

The person (on here) who introduced me to DD said that if I liked Wimsey, I would like Lymond for lots of the same reasons. Peter has always seemed to me to be who Francis might be at 40, grown-up and less melodramatic. And Kate's surname (trying to avoid spoilers) has always made me think of DLS because that was her alma mater - tangential, I know. (My own user name is a reference to Gaudy Night.)

The MNetter who recommended DD (may her name be forever blessed!) also told me to read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, and I think you can draw some fairly straight lines between Miles, Peter and Francis.

Yes, despite ditching DD I am keeping all my DLS books, all my Lois McMaster Bujold books and all of my Georgette Heyer books!

It's made me think, looking at which books I am happy to read over and over, and which ones I shy away from. I'm sure it's my age (70s) and a lack of emotional resilience which I had in spades when younger. It would make an interesting discussion topic on its own!

One thing I will say is the fates meted out to some of the female characters in DD's books are difficult reading. She was very good at creating well rounded and interesting women (good and bad) so it was not always comfortable to see their fates played out. I know it heightens the drama and tragedy, but it is a theme I can't take nowadays.

“One thing I will say is the fates meted out to some of the female characters in DD's books are difficult reading. She was very good at creating well rounded and interesting women (good and bad) so it was not always comfortable to see their fates played out. I know it heightens the drama and tragedy, but it is a theme I can't take nowadays.”
@TeaAndStrumpets do you think this is due to the times in which she wrote the books? Obviously I’m not anywhere near finding out the end of the story arc for any of the characters, GOK was written in the 60s wasn’t it ? I’ve also read the Winston Graham Poldark books (much better than the TV series although I did enjoy that) these were written in the 50s and lots of things wouldn’t have appeared in more modern novels and don’t sit well with our current values.

do you think this is due to the times in which she wrote the books?

And don't forget, the times in which the books are set. You can't set out to write fiction set in the 16th or 18th century and have all your characters thinking and acting like 21st century people - or you can, but it won't be good historical fiction.

neighbour I would be interested to hear your views once you get to the end of the books. Maybe I haven't read enough historical fiction to be able to judge. Certainly they were contemporary to me when I read them, so they seemed fine at the time. I don't find myself influenced by modern values when I'm reading, I suspend disbelief....doesn't everyone? Otherwise one would only read textbooks! I think DD is just as timeless as Dumas, i am not saying they are unreadable to a 2024 reader, far from it. Just that I have lost my appetite for angst as I get older, unfortunately.

namechange
(probably not directed at me but I will contribute) Most readers will surely appreciate the mindset of the characters - the massive influence of faith, family, loyalty.
I don't expect anyone in a novel to act in an anachronistic way, or one may as well set it in modern times. I suppose it was always shitty being a woman, I'm not expecting to read anything different. If DD were writing today I imagine she would still make her characters suffer, because a lot of her themes are tragic, but I have no doubt they would be brilliant books.

I am pleased that people are enjoying them.

@TeaAndStrumpets i do get what you mean about not being able to cope with “angst” as you put it as we get older. I’m in my late 50s and even watching tv or films that I saw only the funny side of when I was in my 20s, I’m now struck by how sad a situation is which would have passed me by unnoticed at the time. I find I’m also affected more by news programs etc. I’m not sure if that’s the extra life experience or just that when I was younger I was too busy to think too deeply about things or maybe the realisation that life is too short to spend time on things/books/ people that bring you down.

A problem when you have a long book series, and a heroic attractive male lead, is that it becomes somewhat necessary to the plot for women to fall for him and / or become somewhat embroiled. And it being not real life, it generally doesn’t fit highly dramatic story lines for those women to be able to say “actually this relationship was a terrible idea, I think I’ll be single for a while then move onto a much saner relationship, thanks v much”. The lead isn’t conveyed as sufficiently amazing if people aren’t left battered in his wake. It does become rather hard to take - but it’s hard to have this kind of story without it. An interesting contrast (in that it’s a highly dramatic historical epic, though the writing is obv v different) is Outlander, where the entire series is the developing and maturing of a very long marriage. That’s one of my favourite things about that series!

(just adding - I’m agreeing with you here, not making a contrasting point!)

How true!

Now you make me want to read Outlander....

Hee hee! Give it a go..!

I gave up after 6 Outlander novels. Found the diet of fairly constant male and female sexual abuse tough going - and I'm one of those people who think A Little Life is a masterpiece even if it is 700 pages of misery porn, so it's not that I shy away from that as a theme of novels.

I'm not sure that a couple of women don't say “actually this relationship was a terrible idea, I think I’ll be single for a while then move onto a much saner relationship, thanks v much”. I think there are a couple of women who pretty much say or think exactly that with Lymond but to go into a discussion of whom that may be would involve massive spoilers.

Sounds like the same scenario as women who get romantically involved with James Bond! They don’t have any woman getting tired of him and realising he’s a jerk and they can’t have him settling down and being monogamous lol !
@mimbleandlittlemy I read up to Tell the Bees that I have gone (can’t remember what the book before that was) of Outlander and I was glued to the first couple of TV series, but I lost interest when they went to USA to be honest, I loved the first series set in Scotland as I’m very into Scottish history, not so much with American civil war etc. I also enjoyed the Bonnie Prince Charlie episodes and books(although the actor in the series was very miscast, Prince Charlie was tall and handsome in real life apparently) I also agree there is so much rape and abuse going on in Outlander especially once they get to the US, it’s hard to read let alone watch. I did enjoy the Lord John spin off mystery novels though.

I have read a book by her years ago. Can't remember which one. It was dire. Heavy going. Haven't read one since. I want to read for pleasure not an authors chance to boast about their clever skills.

I also loved the first few Ouylander novels. But when they went to America they went totally off. And didn't like the daughter very much as a character either.

Well I guess if you found them hard to follow, you're not the target audience.

A bit snippy?

Just an update I’m tearing through GO Kings, one thing that is pissing me off slightly (I’m only on page 309 roughly half way) is that all the women are falling at Lymonds feet lol 😂. I get he’s the hero and I have to say it reminds me a bit of Bernard Cornwell’s Sharpe and as mentioned earlier ,James Bond where no lady is safe from his charms. He’s a bit of a cad and a bounder as Barbara Cartland would have said! Have stopped visualising Lord Flashheart though so that’s progress 😁

That is great progress on the Flashheart front. I promise it gets less Flashy. Keep going and keep us up to date especially as you work your way through the last four books particularly.

I have found my people!!

Agnes Herries doesn't. I love Agnes. Janet Kerr doesn't either and I also love her.

Possibly? I've never understood why people bitch plop like that in threads where people are enthusiastic about something.

Actually that is a good point

I think it is always good if people will explain, but sometimes I have had a gut reaction to a book and can't quite put it into words. Although yes, I would move on.
I am enjoying the discussion here!