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War and Peace Readalong thread 2022

998 replies

VikingNorthUtsire · 05/12/2021 17:26

Interest thread for the 2022 War and Peace readalong

THIS OP WAS UPDATED on 4/1 BY MNHQ (THANK YOU) TO ADD MORE DETAIL TO THE READING SCHEDULE AND UPDATE THE AMAZON LINKS

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

  1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

  • some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
  • there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
  • some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: ]]

NB also this link for the kindle version: ]]

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: ]]

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: ]]

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

  1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

  1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
BakeOffRewatch · 22/01/2022 20:40

Ooh thanks for these quotes @DesdamonasHandkerchief and @rifling. And you’ve just reminded me I neglected to read the daily meditations blog again this week. I think from next week I’ll need to start reading 7 chapters at the weekend, post Christmas haze is nearing its end. But I’m invested enough now to go until the end of the year.

cassandre · 22/01/2022 21:05

Thanks from me too for the info about Tolstoy and war, it's very interesting.

I've been catching up by reading a chapter, then Desdamona's superb summary of the chapter and the thread comments, then the next chapter and so on!

I thought the last few chapters were great. Anna M is amazing to watch in action; I underestimated her earlier! I can see where Boris gets his suaveness from. The gendered element is also interesting: Anna M is nowhere near as powerful as Prince Vassily, but she can still outmanoeuvre him due to her understanding of how society works, and her mastery of language. She understands the importance of appearances and performance -- I thought the way she instructed Pierre to cry was very funny, followed by the way she creates a socially acceptable reason for his failure to weep (he's just manfully holding back the tears!). And then she goes back to the Rostovs and tells them her own version of events, which she clearly intends for them to circulate more widely.

I keep thinking of Les Liaisons dangereuses, an 18th c. French novel I know well -- even though War and Peace is nowhere near as cynical as that novel (where the libertine characters Valmont and Merteuil plot and connive and send letters in order to manipulate the more conventional characters into doing what they want) you still see the importance in War and Peace of gossip/reputation/keeping up appearances/circulation of rumour. Anna M. has more than a bit of the canny, plotting Mme de Merteuil in her.

The Bald Hills scenes are also fascinating. Prince Nikolai is forward-thinking in some ways, because he is determined to educate his daughter (probably not at all a given at the time), but his notion of what education is sounds very narrow and restrictive. No wonder poor Marya seeks refuge in religious belief, as BakeOff said. Her father Nikolai disdains women's language (the letters between Marya and her friend), but Tolstoy clearly puts more value on women's language than his character does, because he gives us the letters in full, and even puts some of his own pacifist views into Marya's voice.

The omniscient narrator lets us see more about Marya than she sees about herself: the beautiful soul visible in her eyes, which she is unaware of.

It's interesting to see the complexity of relations between women in the novel; the scene where Anna M. and the count's niece get into a tug-of-war over the portfolio is followed by the depiction of female friendship in the letters of Marya and Julie Karagin. I think effusive protestations of love were typical of the traditional discourse of female friendship at that time. Marya does draw a boundary with Julie, however, when she turns down her friend's offer to read the New Agey Q-Anon book.

When Marya describes the women weeping over the departure of their sons and husbands for the war, it strikes me that that's the traditional role of women in epic: the men fight and the women mourn (like the women watching the Trojan War from the battlements of Troy). But because this novel is also set in the world of aristocratic salons, women's role isn't just confined to the role of passive bystander: at dining tables and in bedrooms, they can wield power, like Anna M.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 22/01/2022 22:58

@IsFuzzyBeagMise

That's true. We are being hard on her.
Nah, she's still a fun sponge!
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 22/01/2022 23:58

Chapter 23
Prince Andrei and Lise arrive at Bald Hills during Prince Nicolai’s nap time. Andrei is well aware that nothing disturbs his fathers regimented timetable, not even the long awaited arrival of his only son, so they have twenty minutes to kill before the patriarch awakes.

Andrei is, as always ‘looking depressed’ whilst making friends and influencing people. He tells the valet Tikhon that he appears considerably older than the last time he saw him and looks on in complete disgust, ‘shrugging and scowling’, as his wife and sister weep tears of joy over each other and kiss and hug. Mlle Bourienne looks on, ‘smiling blissfully’, and gets in on the crying action. (Tbf this is a little OTT since Tolstoy tells us that Lise has never met Mlle Bourienne before and only met her sister in law briefly at the wedding. They’re obviously the Napoleonic equivalent of those gushing women on social media who call each other ‘babe’ and ‘hun’ whilst showering each other with compliments and undying love!)
When the ‘Love In’ has run it’s course, and Lise has prattled on about nothing for a while, talk turns to Lise’s favourite topic, the impending departure of Andrei for the army and the heartlessness of his leaving her, pregnant and alone, in a strange place. More tears ensue and Andrei decides it’s time for his highly strung wife to have a ‘rest’ while he sees his father.

Before Andrei goes off for his appointment with Pater he and Marya indulge in a little sibling banter about their fathers eccentricities, but both keep it lighthearted and affectionate. Marya manages to put a positive spin on her severely circumscribed life: “The same timetable, the same lathe, still mathematics – and my geometry lessons,’ Princess Marya answered cheerfully, as though geometry lessons were one of the most delightful prospects in her life.”

Andrei is privileged to be admitted into his fathers rooms whilst he dresses for dinner. He enquires after his father’s health to which Prince Bolkonsky replies:
“It’s only fools and libertines that fall ill, my boy, and you know me – busy from dawn to dusk and I don’t indulge. Of course I’m well.”
“Thank God for that” replies Andrei with a smile.
Prince Nikolai Bolkonsky is a man who takes great pride in his physical and mental health and is immovable in his opinion that his strict routine and iron grip on the household is what allows him to stay in peak condition, ‘God’ he insists ‘doesn’t come into it’.

The talk turns to the war with Buonaparte. Bolkonsky Snr manages to stay remarkably up to date with the military news despite his retirement to rural domesticity.
Andrei lays out the Russian plans for defence and attack as he sees them, his father, who has appeared not to be listening, (interrupting to enquire when Lise’s due date is, and at another point randomly singing a snatch of a popular comic French war song) says dismissively, “Well, you’ve told me nothing new” and decrees it’s time for dinner.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/01/2022 00:13

Some really interesting points about gender in the novel in that post @cassandre.

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 23/01/2022 09:43

The effusive greeting between Marya and Lise seemed strange to me too for two women who had met briefly once before. That's very interesting, Cassandre that women greeted each other normally this way, with such expressions of love, so demonstratively. You wonder how genuine it is, if there is real feeling behind it, or is it just for show.

I like your comments about the value of women's language, Cassandre and the value that Tolstoy places on it. It's something to think about and look out for as we read on.

My Kindle says that I'm at the ten per cent mark :)

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 23/01/2022 10:52

It seemed very out of character for Marya, what we know of her so far, all that weeping and kissing. But someone mentioned Dickens up thread and all his female relationships seem a bit icky and overly demonstrative so maybe it was a historical thing. And I suppose in high society the females were all so prim and proper around the opposite sex before marriage maybe it meant they were very touchy-feely with other women as a kind of outlet for all that pent up emotion 🤷‍♀️

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 23/01/2022 11:02

Maybe! It seemed almost comical.

ChannelLightVessel · 23/01/2022 11:17

A lot of excellent points here. I also think that Lise and Marya are probably both happy to have a potential ally in an isolated and in many ways uncongenial place.

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 23/01/2022 11:46

@ChannelLightVessel

A lot of excellent points here. I also think that Lise and Marya are probably both happy to have a potential ally in an isolated and in many ways uncongenial place.
Good point!
MamaNewtNewt · 23/01/2022 12:00

They could have become close by corresponding before and after the wedding. Plus I agree they are both probably relieved to have each other while Andrey is off to war.

StColumbofNavron · 23/01/2022 12:47

I think also family relationships were different back then. Lise is now essentially Marya’s sister. She has left her own family is now part of the Bolkonsky family. I also agree, they will have been corresponding during this time.

I don’t know about Russian culture more generally but many places have a culture of being tactile. In Turkey we kiss everyone even today when greeting and saying goodbye - you only have to have met them,
Maybe once.

VikingNorthUtsire · 23/01/2022 13:53

....followed by the depiction of female friendship in the letters of Marya and Julie Karagin. I think effusive protestations of love were typical of the traditional discourse of female friendship at that time

I haven't got the book to hand but in my edition it says that the letters between Marya and Julie were based on real-life correspondence between two young women of a similar background.

OP posts:
Sadik · 23/01/2022 14:16

I guess it's also a very emotional moment for both of them - Marya's brother / Lise's husband is going off to war, and may not return.

LaDoIceVita · 23/01/2022 18:07

I don’t know about Russian culture more generally but many places have a culture of being tactile

My father worked for the Soviet State Bank when I was a child (1970's). I knew several of the Russians that came over here to work (especially those with children) and they were very tactile. Not with non-Russian adults - they were always careful to respect British behaviour and customs - but with each other, and with children of any nationality. They were lovely people!

VikingNorthUtsire · 23/01/2022 18:19

Evening all, just a reminder that the end of Part 1 is almost upon us so we'll be convening on Tuesday for a round-up and general chat about what we've read. There's been pretty lively chat about the daily chapters so far - hopefully this is also a chance for anyone who's reading on a different schedule to jump back in and compare notes.

OP posts:
rifling · 23/01/2022 19:02

I'm in Italy and pre-covid there was a lot of kissing (not now Sad) but not as much as between my Russian colleagues!

Aargh - just realised that Tuesday evening I have (online) book club! MaybeI can do both?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/01/2022 00:19

Chapter 24
Prince Nikolai Bolkonsky enters the dining room at the exact time decreed by his strict timetable.
As well as Mlle Bourienne the family are joined by architect, Mikhail Ivanovich. The architect dines with the Bolkonskys on a regular basis for no other reason than to demonstrate how democratic Prince Bolonsky can be when he chooses. Normally a ‘stickler for social distinctions’, he “had suddenly lighted on the architect … as living proof that all men are equal, and had repeatedly impressed on his daughter that Mikhail Ivanovich was by no means an inferior. At meals the prince spent most of his time talking to the architect, who never said anything back.”
True to form the Prince sits with the architect on one side and invites his daughter in law to sit on the other. He starts by chastising Lise on her advanced pregnancy - “You’ve not wasted any time. Not a good thing!” - which embarrasses her greatly. (Maybe she should have reminded the old fool it takes two to tango!)
Then, softening a little, he asks her about her family and acquaintances in common - finally Lise is in her comfort zone - she prattles on and on, ‘conveying best wishes from various people and telling him the city gossip’.
“As she did so, the prince stared at her more and more severely, and then suddenly, as though he had studied all there was to study about her and formed a clear impression, he turned the other way and spoke to Mikhail Ivanovich.”

Oh dear, who does this remind us of? It would appear Andrei attended the Bolkonsky Charm School and is a chip off the old block.

All the manly men have a manly conversation about war, or rather Andrei and his father do, the architect gets on with his meal and hopes they’ve forgotten him.

Lise is forthwith ignored by the manly men and she turns to Marya for a crumb of comfort saying, “What a clever man your father is … Perhaps that’s why I’m so scared of him.”
“Oh, he is so kind!” replies Princess Marya, who clearly has Stockholm syndrome 🤷‍♀️

MamaNewtNewt · 24/01/2022 08:52

The apple definitely didn't fall far from the tree with Andrey, I noticed that when we were first introduced to Prince Nikolay Tolstoy mentioned his teeny hands Smile

I'm wondering if Prince N has a heart of gold underneath his strange ways. We've seen glimpses of his love for his children, albeit awkwardly expressed, and both his children seem to love and respect him.

StColumbofNavron · 24/01/2022 10:39

That’s an interesting point. He also was quite endearing about them looking after Lise to Andrey I think, not sure if I am remembering correctly.

IsFuzzyBeagMise · 24/01/2022 13:59

He might have a heart of gold under his many padded layers, but I don't envy Marya trying to get along with him!

Stokey · 24/01/2022 14:50

I loved the depiction of the architect in this chapter, very funny, the poor man.

And Prince N is beautifully eccentric. I hope we see more of him as the plot progresses.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 25/01/2022 00:12

Chapter 25
The next day Andrei is ready to depart. He’s pacing his room ruminating on going to war and leaving his wife when his sister, Marya, comes to talk with him. She compliments him on his lovely child-like wife who is so ‘sweet’ and ‘happy’, Andrei says nothing but his face takes on a look of ‘irony and scorn’.
Marya implores him to overlook his wives ‘little weaknesses’ and have some empathy for her position, but Andrei seems incapable of doing so.
Later he confesses to Marya that neither he nor Lise are happy in this marriage but he doesn’t know why. (Erm… Andrei, old chum, do you think maybe it’s because you can’t stand her and make no effort to hide the fact, do you think that might be a factor?)

The talk turns to ‘that woman Bourienne’ and it appears here is another woman who Andrei doesn’t like. Marya protests that, “She’s so kind, and so sweet”, but goes on to confess, “If you want to know the truth, she’s no use to me, in fact I find her oppressive.”
It transpires that Mademoiselle Bourienne was an orphan picked up off the streets by Prince Nikolai and she has become one of very few people he tolerates around him, indeed he likes her to read to him in the evenings.

This naturally leads them onto their father and Andrei touches on Marya’s living conditions, saying the Prince has, “always been on the stern side, but now I think he’s getting quite difficult,”
Princess Marya is horrified that Andrei can disparage their father in this way, and believes he must be teasing her or seeking to test her. She protests she has the deepest admiration for her father and is ‘pleased and happy to be with him.’ (That Stockholm syndrome goes deep man!) The only criticism of her father she is willing to concede is that he isn’t religious enough for her liking, but then I’m wondering who would be 🤷‍♀️ maybe Mother Theresa, but it’s touch and go.

Marya takes this opportunity to press upon Andrei a holy icon necklace that had been their grandfathers. She hopes it will keep him safe in battle, and whilst Andrei is amused by her beliefs, and doesn’t share her superstition, he promises to wear it always to make her happy:
“Her great wide eyes shone timidly with loving kindness. They lit up the whole of her thin, sickly face and turned it into a thing of beauty.”
(Again with the eyes, we get it, she’s got amazing eyes, we know already!)

It’s time for Andrei to leave but first he has a private audience with his father. His father is gruff and short, he seems to be having some difficulty containing his emotion, and is writing a letter getting ink blotches everywhere.

Andrei asks that a Moscow specialist be called to help with the birth when the time comes, and to ease Lise’s fears, his father consents to this although he clearly thinks it’s a ridiculous notion.
Andrei has a second request, if he doesn’t return from the war, and his child is a boy, he wants that son to be brought up at Bald Hills by his father. (Because obviously, that would be better for him than being in the sole care of a loving mother, wouldn’t want him to miss out on all that red blooded misogyny and indoctrination.) No such request is made if he has a daughter - Andrei doesn’t seem to have any qualms about a girl being brought up by Lise.

Time for what constitutes a Bolkonsky father/son heart to heart. Marriage, the old man states, is a ‘bad business’ and wives are all the same, still ‘can’t be helped ... you can’t get unmarried now. Don’t worry, I shan’t tell anyone, but you know it’s true’, he cheerfully concludes. (Women hey! Can’t live with ‘em, can’t live with ‘em.)

Prince Nikolai hands over the letter he has been frantically scribbling during their interview it is to General Kutuzov, basically a reference, and a plea to use his son well and promote him as soon as possible.

The interview is at an end:
“‘Well, goodbye then!’ He gave his son his hand to kiss and then embraced him. ‘Remember this, Prince Andrey, if you get killed, it will be a great sadness to me in my old age …’ He broke off sharply, and then bawled at him, ‘but if I hear that you have not behaved like the son of Nikolay Bolkonsky, I shall be … ashamed of you. ….
We’ve said goodbye … Just go!’ he said suddenly. ‘Go!’ he cried in a loud angry voice, opening the study door.”

It doesn’t take a psychiatrist to work out that Prince Nikolai is hiding his sadness and anxiety behind a mask of irritation and anger.

Now, having learnt it from the master, it’s Andrei’s turn to take a passively aggressive stance towards those who love him:
“‘Come on, then,’ he said, turning to his wife, and his ‘Come on, then’ sounded like a cold rebuke, as if he had said, ‘Let’s see you put on your little act.’
Lise duly turns pale, cries and faints against his shoulder. He peels her away from him and sits her down, kisses his sister (referring to her by the pet name ‘Masha’) ignores Mademoiselle Bourienne, and strides purposefully away. The women are left trying to comfort Lise.

The final word goes to old Prince Bolkonsky who can be heard from the study blowing his nose like ‘pistol shots’:
“The moment Prince Andrey left the room, his study door was flung open and out peered the forbidding figure of the old man in his white dressing-gown. ‘Has he gone? Good thing too!’ he said, glaring at the swooning princess. He shook his head in disapproval and slammed the door.”

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 25/01/2022 00:14

Phew, end of Volume One, Part One! And end of my daily summaries, all the main runners and riders are now in position, and we’re about to enter a sustained ‘War’ phase, not my area of expertise, I’m more of a gossipy fluff girl!

ChessieFL · 25/01/2022 05:37

I’ve really enjoyed it so far, much more than I thought I would. It’s much funnier and easier to read than I expected, although I guess that’s about to change from what Desdemona’s just said! The only bit I’ve struggled with sometimes is keeping track of the characters, but I’ve got a list on my phone now with them grouped to families so I can quickly check who’s related to who.

I feel very sorry for most of the women we’ve met so far. Not only do they all look odd according to Tolstoy, but most of them are living with at least one man who either openly dislikes or is disdainful of them. The only one who doesn’t seem to fit this is Countess Rostov, whose husband does seem fond of her. I have no idea about the plot of this so don’t know what’s coming, but I’m guessing it’s not going to get better for the women.

And the poor bear, we never did find out what happened to it.

Of the men, Count Rostov seems to be the only nice one. Pierre is a bit of an oaf but at least he’s not actually horrible to anyone. None of the rest of the men seem particularly likeable at this stage.

Bring on the war!

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