2018 Reading Group - January: North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell - *Spoilers from 25 January*

[Plentyoffishnets]

Hi, lots of interest on a different thread for starting a 2018 MN reading group.
Aim is to read one book a month, finishing by 25th of each month then discussing and selecting the next month's book.
For January we have gone for North and South by Elisabeth Gaskell.
So this thread is for those who want to join in, all are welcome

Probably useful to have some prompts.

Found these if they are of any use. Just doing bedtime will be back in a bit.

Who changes more by the end of the novel, Margaret Hale or John Thornton? Why?
Why are the chapters before the move to Milton important? What does this backstory add to the plot?
Why did Gaskell call this book North and South? What does the title signify, besides the fact that Margaret moves from the south to the north?
Is Margaret's initial condemnation of John Thornton reasonable, or is her understanding of labor relations naïve? Use examples from the text to support your argument.
If a friend asked you what North and South was about, how would you answer them?
How do Margaret Hale and John Thornton stay the same throughout the novel?
What does all the death in North and South contribute to the plot? How does it build the (surviving) characters?
Why does Mr. Hale decide to leave his home in Helstone? Is it a good reason? Why or why not?

Maybe they are a bit essayish might be something better out there

Ok here are some prompts but feel free to say what you want or bring in another question

1. Have you seen the BBC mini-series? Is the book anything like you expected it to be?

2. Was there anything that happened that you found surprising or unexpected? Or was everything very predictable?

3. How does Mr. Thornton’s views on the master/worker relationship change? Or. . .did it change? Did your view on this issue change as you experienced this book?

4. There’s much talk about all the deaths in this book. What are your feelings on that? Do you think they were necessary? Or too much?

5. Now that we’ve met Frederick, do you like him? Are you sympathetic to his predicament?

6. Why do you think Margaret refused Henry?

7. What were your first impressions of Mr. Thornton?

8. Why is Margaret so indifferent to Mr. Thornton, but she can make friends with the Higgins? They are both northern people and have different customs.

9. Do you think Mr. Hale was justified in leaving the church and his position?

10. Do you have a favourite quote?

From
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/smilingldsgirl.com/2015/02/04/north-and-south-final-discussion-questions/amp/

[Grin]
Massive cross post with mama

Hmm. I've never done book club before but happy to break the ice.

I thought prejudice was an interesting theme of the book.

Margaret against John and the North
Mrs Thornton against Margaret
Higgins against Margaret and Thornton

Probably other examples I've missed.

Am I just putting modern values on an old novel or was the prejudice noteworthy even then? I certainly found it very frustrating. I'd add to that an inability to see anyone else's viewpoint. That particularly came out for me in relation to the strike - neither side seemed to be able to see the other's point of view and each was convinced of their own rightness.

Not sure how helpful this is but I'll put it out there.

Sorry also cross posted with the prompts

Jaimes I agree there was a lot of prejudice and sensitivity to class.

Mrs Thornton and Fanny saying that Margaret didn't play piano for example as an example of how unaccomplished or poor she was?

It worked both ways, didn't it. I did wonder how a reader at the time would have felt about it. Would it have been so striking?

Yup. It is hard to imagine what impression it would have made at the time.
Margaret ending up loaning money to John (is that right?) Thornton. I imagine that might have been seen as radical.
1850's so 2 or 3 generations before my grandmother was born.

9. Do you think Mr. Hale was justified in leaving the church and his position?

I wasn't sure why he left alert from some idea about his conscience and a crisis of faith?

I think at the time class was much more obvious than it is now. Although we still have a class system I think the lines are more blurred than they were at the time. Therefore someone reading it when it was first released might not have noticed it quite as much as we do?

From some of the prompts:
I think Margaret changed the most. I don’t believe Thornton did change at all (or much) more that Margaret got to know him better and as her thoughts were our main source of information that’s how we viewed him too. I didn’t like Margaret at all to begin with but she grew on me by the end as she grew too.

I’ve seen the mini series and they changed Mr Thornton so much! It was strange watching it back. They clearly wanted to give the watcher a reason to actively dislike him which I think was absent from the book. It meant that Margaret appeared much more prejudiced against him purely from where he was brought up.

I loved the Thornton’s back story. I think it helped us to understand why he was so against the workers who striked. He managed to work his way up the ladder so why shouldn’t everyone kind of thing. As a leftie I was more inclined to the workers side of thinking but the way it was described meant I could actually see both sides (which is unusual when it comes to socialism )

I found Mr Hale leaving the church confusing too! It came across as though it was more the interpretation of the Bible that he disagreed with? Especially when later he tries to get Higgins to pray etc with him which makes it appear as though he still believes?

Agreed. It wasn't at all clear. He seemed to still believe in God but to have parted ways with the Church.

Re the question about why Margaret got on with Higgins but not Thornton, I think it was because she was secure in how she stood with him - she was better than him and she was used to being better than the labourers etc in Helstone. Thornton threw her because she felt superior to him (trade) but also felt her family was obliged to him. He reminded her that the family had come down in the world.

I think you’re right JaimesGoldenHand that’s exactly how it came across

Yes i think you are right. Margaret felt comfortable when she was doing good deeds.
Maybe Mr Thorton was of a new class, the merchants and manufacturers and that was harder for her to weigh up?

I didn't really fully understand Mr Hale leaving the church, and as a character he annoyed me somewhat-I found him to be quite weak.

I think the prejudice towards the North was definitely a thing at the time the novel was written. And actually still now exists to some degree. Interesting how the idea of the northern powerhouse is still referenced in current political rhetoric-and that when the novel was set it was actually a thing-but not necessarily celebrated.

I thought the book depicted the northern mill town perfectly. I grew up in North Derbyshire and used to Travel to Manchester a lot-through lots of little mill towns-New Mills stands out in memory and seems to fit this book as it sits across a steep valley-and so that's where I pictured the book in my head...

I liked Margaret throughout.I was surprised by how outspoken she was, particularly towards Mrs Thornton. And I'm not totally sure it was realistic that she would so quickly befriend the Higgins', though good for the narrative.

The part I didn't like about the book was the ending-it was too...abrupt...for me. I wanted a bit more romance in the final getting together! For that the BBC version won hands down for me

I was disappointed in the ending tbh. It all felt a bit Mills & Boon to me - she's rich and she gets her man.

Were books such as this and Austen ones considered to be slushy at the time of release? Like our versions of chick lit? Or were they given more respect?

Agree it seems Mr Hale had doubts about the authority of the church or role of the church rather than a crisis of belief.
I would have liked this to have been expanded on.
Religious doubts seemed to be an ongoing theme, with Mr Hale and Higgins. Higgins viewpoint regarding the difficulty of faith in a life of suffering was very insightful and seemed quite outspoken for the period. We also had Frederick converting to Catholicism.

Did anyone else hate the character of Bessy?

I think Thornton did change, we see the growing relationship with Higgins and his willingness to learn from the mill workers, the canteen idea was very progressive. It was in character though as Thornton was clearly keen to learn from the beginning, thus his hiring a tutor in the first place. So Thornton did seem much more open minded than Margaret.

I agree that Margaret felt more comfortable with the Higginses as she felt comfortably above them.

Agree about Mr Hale and Mrs Hale actually.
Agree the ending was sudden.

At the time the rural poverty must have been shocking too. That's what drove people to the factories.

I guess the Hales' quality of life was much better in Helston though. Although they still had 2 servants even up North.

I didn't particularly like Bessy-I found her bits to be a bit dull...

I think the book was published in 20 odd sections in weekly magazine like Dickinson.

I suppose if she hadn't have inherited she couldnt have married poor Thornton or Henry the poor barrister.

I guess she couldn't have earned a good living at the time.

I felt that Thornton was battling his background a bit at times-he knew what it was to be poor but before he met Margaret and Higgins and was redeemed a little, he had become hardened towards those he considered as having not bettered themselves as he had-he failed to realise or recognise the importance of luck or circumstance in being helpful
To bettering yourself. Quite Conservative (politically) in opinion by today's standards. Which struck me as being at odds with the modern view of the North as being more Labour in values (represented by Higgins and his belief in the Union).

It was published in sections and was edited by Dickinson. The story goes he was getting fed up and told her to hurry up which is why the ending is so abrupt ...