2018 Reading Group - January: North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell - *Spoilers from 25 January*

[Plentyoffishnets]

Hi, lots of interest on a different thread for starting a 2018 MN reading group.
Aim is to read one book a month, finishing by 25th of each month then discussing and selecting the next month's book.
For January we have gone for North and South by Elisabeth Gaskell.
So this thread is for those who want to join in, all are welcome

[HolyShmoly]

Just marking this to come back to it. I've read it a couple times before and re-watched the mini-series at Christmas (where's the swoon emoji when you need one) and just listened to the Bonnets at Dawn read-along a few weeks ago. But I'm about 70% through and want to finish reading before adding my comments.
I do love that every time I re-read it I focus on something different. Previously I found the whole Higgins/Thornton Unions/Employers thing very interesting. This time I am absolutely here for this love story. The recent memory of Richard Armitage might be part of the reason, but Thornton is probably the hottest fictional character for me.

[Chillywhippet]

Holy that's it. Will start to series tomorrow

[DarthNigel]

Armitage does change the whole complexion of it, to be fair.

[mynameisnotmichaelcaine]

He's really an exceptionally good-looking man. Can't believe how old the mini-series looks now!

[mamapants]

darth I think she didn't understand her own feelings and why she jumped in front of him. I think she completely surprised herself and she justified it to herself as something she would have done for anyone. In the moment when he was in danger her instinct was to protect him. Following that moment she seems to gradually awaken to the idea that her feelings for Thornton are stronger/ different to what she thought.

I also think she actually was a bit offended when Henry proposed to her, there is something she says along the lines of being offended that she had grown up to the point that someone saw her as a woman.

[ClashCityRocker]

I too think that although she felt conflicted about Thornton before that point, she began to fall in love with him when he was so kind to her family when her mother was dying.

In some ways it was refreshing to read about a more complex female character in classic literature - a great many of them seem so simple and straightforward with no concern greater than who is marrying who.

[endehors]

I’ve finished but am terrible typing using phone so will wait until later.
It’s interesting to compare to the mini series. Mr Bell doesn’t die but instead spends his, few, remaining days abroad. I think that works quite well. Too many deaths perhaps! Though that end scene, as much as is a favourite of some, would not have happened
Agree Margaret’s feelings for Thornton developed, possibly from the time of the riot. And he behaved so well towards Margaret and her family, even after her refusal and discovering her ‘lie’ about her whereabouts on the night Frederick left.

[desperatelyseekingcaffeine]

I enjoyed the fact that she was a strong independent female character. Wasn't so keen on the end, not just the romantic side but the fact she became very emotionally weak and fragile. It was understandable given how much she'd lost but I was still disappointed by it.

I liked the contrast of north and south, particularly when Higgins talked about going south to work and Margaret stated how hard he'd find it even though it sounded easier on the surface.

[greenllicic]

I liked the way the characters were really brought to life and the way Margaret's family interacted. I was surprised that they were so physically affectionate in that time. I liked the character of Higgins but found it difficult to read the way it was written in his accent. I found the book very hard going but can't wait to watch the mini series. Thank you for starting this book group as I would never had picked this book up

[greenllicic]

Is the next one definitely Fatherland? Iv got it

[BookWitch]

Sorry I'm coming a bit late to the discussion.

I really enjoyed it, more so than jane Eyre and P&P in some places. Margaret was a good, strong character and I liked her from the beginning.
I did like Mrs Thornton too, and would have liked to know more about her. I know we did get her back story a bit, but feel we could have known more,
I agree that the ending was a bit abrupt.

If anyone fancies it as recording book, the Audible version with Juliet Stephenson narrating is absolutely brilliant, she does a great job or the northern accents without them becoming a caricature.

I have Fatherland lined up on Audible next.

[Chillywhippet]

Great comments. I really liked the way the women were important in the story too.

Yes Fatherland next. I can start a new thread later when I'm not on my phone.

I saw the film The Darkest Hour last night which provides interesting background for the premise of the book.

[endehors]

I was just about to ask if there would be a Fatherland thread. I'll start reading that tomorrow.

Speaking of the mini series. Did anybody ever watch the 1975 (or 1974) North and South series? It doesn't stand up well to the more recent series or in terms of characters or in being very faithful to the book, I thought.

[endehors]

I agree that the ending was a bit abrupt.

I wanted to hear just a little about the family and friends reactions (even though we could probably well imagine what they would say) and their wedding! Oddly, a couple of years ago somebody bought one of those fan fiction type sequels to North and South for me as a gift. It was terrible though, really awful. I'll have to look up the title as I didn't keep it!

[DarthNigel]

Starting Fatherland tonight. I've just read Eleanor Oliphant.... in three days flat and loved it!

[endehors]

I think they're reading Eleanor Oliphant for the Mumsnet book club? I might try that one too.

[RustyBear]

North and South

I think John Thornton does greatly underestimate the advantages he got from his education, both from the type of school he would have attended and the support of his parents. I’m not sure exactly how old he is, but Mr Hale says he’s ‘about 30’, so he wouldn’t have been far short of 14 when he had to leave school.
He says ‘any man who can read and write starts fair with me in the amount of really useful knowledge that I had at that time’ - but to compare the education at the ‘ragged schools’ which factory children attended with that at a school that taught Latin and Greek is a not a fair comparison. Thornton claims that the Latin and Greek he learned were of no use to him, but a classical education, however brief, would have taught him comprehension skills that the factory children would never have, being taught just basic reading skills - ‘decoding’ as it would be called today, and reciting by rote.

[runningoutofjuice]

I think over all I was disappointed with the book. Plus my copy didn't have a foreword which usually helps me conceptualise any classic novels I read.
The ending was the main reason for my disappointment. Why did Thornton think Margaret's feelings for him were now completely different just because she was lending him some money? At no point did he ever know that she was feeling more disposed towards him. Just because he became aware she had turned Lennox down flat there was no reason for him to think that moved him up in her eyes. And wouldn't she have been more blindsided and affronted at his lapse into talking about love when a profusion of thanks would have been more suitable?
I would have liked another chapter - a few details about the dil/mil relationship where Margaret would have usurped Mrs Thornton in the household, Edith's chagrin about losing her 'pet', Higgins's gruff ŵelcome, Thornton's returning laugh and Margaret's settling in period.
I did enjoy the chapters on northern life and the friendship between Thornton and Higgins. I liked the fact that Margaret's final visit to Helstone laid to rest any lingering memories she had of the place and her future in Milton wouldn't be plagued by a longing for the South.

Looking forward to Fatherland now!

[Chillywhippet]

Running I forgot that the visit to Helstone was such a strong chapter. I loved how all the tiny changes were noticed - a tree or even a branch missing and the changes at the vicarage. I thought it was really poignant and well done and spoke of both loss and hope actually.

I guess Dickens wanted to publish a different story and she had to wrap it up quickly? I did like how I wasn't completely sure until right at the end whether she would marry either of them or nobody.

Has anyone read Cranford? I've only seen the send up on TV with the women communicating by cross stitch

[KiteyDelighty]

If anyone is interested you can listen to North and South discussed on Radio 4 as part of Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time series. V good for the context of the novel, the impact it had and what Gaskell was trying to do.

[HolyShmoly]

Ok, I finished it last night and now have my laptop to type properly.

A lot of people don't seem to like Margaret. I like the fact that she's flawed, it makes her real for me. She's very biased and snobbish at the beginning, but that doesn't come from nowhere. Her mother is so ashamed at not having new clothes that she doesn't come to her only sister's only daughter's wedding. She's also very snobbish about tradespeople or 'shoppy' people. When she's back at Harley Street she reflects on how you never see other classes of people, she's been completely isolated from them before now. She even reflects on Frederick's snobbishness about tradespeople when he is a merchant.
I think she's a strong character from the beginning, but the calamities and changes that befall her over the period of the book give her agency and freedom that she would never have had in London.
I don't believe her time in Milton has completely turned her into an egalitarian though. If Nicholas Higgins was Bessy's single brother rather than her dad, I think any thoughts of a romantic entanglement would be still be completely outside the realms of possibility.
Has anyone read (and remembered anything of) Middlemarch? I believe it deals a lot with the emerging middle class/trading class. I read it once though and found it very dull so I can't use it as a comparison.
Thornton for sure underestimates the start he got in life, not just through his education (which I don't know provided him that much of an advantage) but the value of a mother who was ambitious for him and who set aside savings for him, the connections that allowed him to be a draper's apprentice rather than a wefter, his own work ethic, etc. The fact that he paid all creditors back was a credit to him, being taken on as a junior partner by one of those creditors is not something that would be offered to most men. However, I think he too has obviously benefited by being thrown in amongst Higgins and other working classes in the canteen. I think Higgins and he are clearly very similar characters - the 'True Men' he talks of, but in very different situations. I think even Thornton appreciates by the end that it takes more than force of will to make him a master and Higgins a hand.

Bess annoyed me a little bit less this reading, but I find her boring. She's a bit too much of a paragon of faith and unfailing sympathy. To be fair, I do find a lot of the background characters incredibly frustrating. Mr Hale is so ineffectual and Mrs Hale and her sister are such whiners.

I think there's a lot in it about growing up and moving away and the fact that nothing is as perfect as you imagine it to be. Her first removal to Helstone was beautiful, but then it was spoiled by her parents. Milton had lots of flaws, but lots of benefits that she couldn't see until she had left it. The languid tranquility of Harley Street grew stagnate and frustrating when she came back. In a bit of a contrast, Frederick explored South America and then set up a life for himself in Spain, embracing a new career, new love, new family, new language and even a new religion. The grass may have been greener in England, but his home is now in Spain.

I believe Margaret fell in love with Thornton long before she knew it, before the riots. She enjoyed sparking off him and the fact that he engaged her in conversation. She had started to notice how other people reacted towards him and how he stood out amongst others. But she never reflected on it because she never had thought to. I do wonder if she would have reacted differently towards his proposal if she hadn't have heard Fanny and the servant gossiping about her beforehand. She was definitely still chafing about it when he came round.
As for the sudden ending, yep it was very sudden. But I am ok with that. I think that being alone with Margaret, in that proximity kind of just broke through the self reserve he tried so hard to cultivate and maintain. We saw that a little bit the night before when he came over to tell her that the workers had a note to say that they would gladly work under him again, and that he thought she would like to know. and made fuck me eyes at her while standing there

I have a lot of feelings about North and South.

[HolyShmoly]

Also, in my bitter imagination - Fanny's husband speculates further and loses this time. Fanny is poisoned by jealousy over how happy Margaret and John are, especially when they see the Alhambra when they visit Frederick in Spain.
I think Mrs Thornton would actually be delighted with Margaret as a daughter-in-law. She would have been disappointed if Thornton had married an Edith-type character.
The fact that Mr Lennox assumed that she would turn phrases and play word games like 'any other London lady' shows how little he actually knows her, friends as they seemingly were. His help to her was only ever with the attention of getting in her pants marrying her. Thornton bent over backwards to help Mrs Hale when he thought there was no way Margaret would ever repay his feelings. He wanted to be nice to the wife of his friend and mother of the woman he loved, with no prospect of gain.

[runningoutofjuice]

Thanks for the heads up Kitey, have just listened to the broadcast. It mentions the abrupt ending and says that Dickens was responsible for that when it was serialised in the paper he edited; he told her how many words she was allowed each week and apparently edited out stuff he didn't like. When it came to be published in book form, she expanded on some areas of the book but left the ending as it was when it was serialised. So although she knew it was rushed she must have felt it didn't need improving. Would love to know why!
The broadcast explains the background for the novel through Gaskell's own life and her earlier novel, Mary Barton. Very interesting.

[endehors]

Chilly - It's some time since I read Cranford, it's a quiet, slow moving slice of village life sort of book, not unpleasant. It reminds me of Lark Rise to Candleford (I prefer the latter) though I disliked both TV adaptations, personally, finding them twee and unwatchable. It was probably my least favourite book of Gaskell's, however.

Do people like other Gaskell books, or have a favourite? Mine, of course, is North and South, as it has been the most reread, followed by Wives and Daughters. The novel, Ruth, makes me cross to think of, that poor woman and the great penance and price she pays throughout the book. Mary Barton I only read once, it reminds me a little of North and South with themes of strikes, marches and much talk of clemming and hunger...and a romance

[Veryhungrycaterpillar84]

Is the newer TVs series worth watching? Has anyone seen it? I really enjoyed North and South on audiobook much better than Cranford. Gaskell's decription was v clear , I could really visualise the characters. Juliet Stevenson narrates it very well.