Lamentation by CJ Sansom - anyone read it and want to discuss it?

[Dumbledoresgirl]

I've just finished it and I would love to talk to some fellow Shardlake enthusiasts about it. Anyone interested?

Hello, I just finished it the other day. I really enjoyed it (as with all Shardlake novels to be honest) although I was shocked at the fairly brutal ending.

Yep. Can I just say - Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

I re-read all of the others in a row immediately before reading, 'Lamentation.' It was wonderful to live for a real chunk of time in Shardlake's world, following him through several adventures without waiting time in between.

I probably should have reread Heartstone, I couldn't remember what had happened on the Mary Rose.

I'm glad that the books are moving on from the reign on Henry VIII though. I've never forgiven the old bastard for making Shardlake wet himself in York!

And yes, Jack

Oh hello my fellow Shardlake enthusiasts!

Well, now that I have found you, can I say what is really bursting to get out of me?

C J Sansom - how could you do that to Jack? I always assumed you had some of the personality of Shardlake - compassion, a gentleness of spirit, a fondness for the fellowship of mankind - and yet you can do that to Jack? I am not sure I will be able to forgive you!

I have read online the suggestion that Sansom was bored with the character and couldn't think of what else to do with him and so has 'pensioned him off'. I sincerely hope that isn't the case as Shardlake has only been kept alive for me by Jack Barak. I was most disappointed he didn't really get much of a role in Lamentation - and I too have forgotten most of Heartstone but I have a feeling I was not happy with his part in that novel either. Actually, I think he might still have plans for Jack. He has Shardlake thinking at the end of Lamentation about his responsibilities towards Timothy, Nicholas and 'yes, Barak' and he has Jack telling Shardlake that he is 'working on Tammy' so I suppose that suggests he (Sansom) intends to continue with the character. But I am heartbroken that he will never again be quite the man he was.

If Sansom is anything like Shardlake, does this extend to being unlucky in love? Is Sansom jealous of Jack for seeming to have everything in life?

OK, passionate rant over! That aside, I am not sure I enjoyed Lamentation all that much, and I know I didn't enjoy Heartstone as much as previous books. Has Sansom run out of ideas, do you think? I have read that he wants to take Shardlake on into the Elizabethan era, but I am wondering if he has run out of good mysteries to develop. The political and religious plots can only go so far in my opinion as they are all laid out as historical facts already (ie, we all knew the Queen would survive the jeopardy of her book being stolen as she did in real life) so, for me, it is the fictional aspects that have made up the plots in the past that have interested me.

Agree that Lanentation wasn't the best. Other than the dramatic stuff at the end. I liked, 'Heartstone' though. I think after the first two, they started to get a bit too long and might be better with a bit of culling. Then again, I think that about most books nowadays!

I do hope Jack returns and regains some of his former vigour. The part where Shardlake describes his pouchy face was heartbreaking. I suppose that now Jack is married with children he can't be the adventurer he once was but I think his character deserves more than to be pensioned off.

I too hope that the series moving into a new era will liven the series up a bit. I'd also like Shardlake to experience a bit of actual romance, not just mooning over Lady Latimer/Catherine Parr (I did get quite frustrated with Shardlake's ridiculous attitude towards her).

Incidentally, who could you see as Shardlake on TV/film? No one springs to mind for me, maybe because I don't really have a clear picture in my mind of how he looks facially. For Jack, I always think of him as looking like Tom Chambers (Sam from Holby/winner of Strictly a few years ago) and Guy is a bit Morgan Freemanish.

Yes, I think Revelation and Dark Fire are the best although I rather liked Revelation because the action came so thick and fast and the whole concept of a serial killer knocking people off according to the book of Revelation was gruesomely fascinating. I loved the idea of Shardlake trying to help the agoraphobe whose name escapes me (Ellen?) in Bedlam too.

I shall have to read Heartstone again. It is the only one, apart from Lamentation of course, that I have only read once. On that note, I thought the big reveal at the end of that was that Hugh was really a girl? Is this the same Hugh he is writing to in Lamentation? Yet there is no mention of 'him' being a 'her'? I must have that wrong.

I suppose that now Jack is married with children he can't be the adventurer he once was but I think his character deserves more than to be pensioned off.

I would be happy enough just to have him commenting from the sidelines. I missed his down to earth comments and disrespectful attitude towards the nobility in Lamentation. Shardlake can be a bit too 'proper' at times. He needs Jack saying arsehole occasionally! And yes, I agree re his mooning over Catherine Parr. She looks a right trout in her portraits and I would have thought her religious zeal would be a turn off to Shardlake who is dangling on the edge of atheism so I don't quite see the attraction.

I'm like you regarding who would best play the characters. I don't have a clear enough picture of the physical appearance of any of them to judge. When Dark Fire was serialised on Radio 4, I remember the person playing Barak didn't really fit my impression of his voice, but it would be hard to pick someone I think would fit.

Argh! My first line in my previous post should have said 'Dissolution and Dark Fire were the best.'

I'm sort of placemarking here because I want to join you but I haven't quite finished it yet. Should be finished this evening as I'm currently wrapped in a cosy blanket, coffee in hand and everyone in the house is giving me peace

Oh Treacle - I hope you haven't read the thread too closely. I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you.

I have just googled Tom Chambers. Yes, physically, he would fit Jack well. He has the right level of good looks. But the voice is important too!

Spoiler alert for anybody who hasn't read, 'Heartstone.'....................................................................

Yes, it's the same Hugh. And he decided to continue living as a boy.

No, I very carefully read the first couple of sentences then posted my post without reading anything else. Then I read your post because I saw my name. But I'll be back when I'm finished.

Also just googled Tom Chambers. Handsome enough but a bit too pretty.

Yes, it's the same Hugh. And he decided to continue living as a boy.

That's what I remembered. Don't you think it's odd that, within the privacy of his thoughts, Shardlake doesn't 'mention' that, iyswim?

I seem to remember that it's made pretty clear at the end of, 'Heartstone' and that Shardlake understands exactly why that choice is made. I might be wrong though.

Yes I accept that he accepts the decision. I just thought, given Sansom's penchant for reminding us of things on a fairly regular level, that he would have had Shardlake thinking about it. Not from the perspective of 'how odd that she is doing this' but more along the lines of him worrying for her/his safety or her/his true identity being exposed.

I realise it wasn't relevant to the plot of Lamentation, but neither was it relevant particularly to mention that Guy used to be a monk (ok, maybe a little, to explain why he was so set against Shardlake's religious standpoint) yet he always does mention it at some point in every book.

Anyway, it just made me question the little I had remembered about Heartstone, so thanks for confirming that I had remembered correctly.

I'm going to read Heartstone again too. I cannot remember anything about this Hugh character.

By the way, Queens Gambit by Elizabeth Freemantle is a good read if you like historical fiction. It tells the story of Henry VIII and Catherine Parr from Catherine's point of view.

Done! Off to read the rest of the thread now.

Ok.

Can't believe that he did that to Barak!! And incidentally, I visualise Barak looking like the late Lewis Collins when he was young and playing Bodie in The Professionals. Young folk will have to google that I expect! I was only a child when that was on TV but for some reason he popped into my head when I first read a description of Barak and that's how I see him.

I think I'm finding each novel a bit less engaging than the one before. Which is a real shame because I like the characters andatmosphere.

And I started a thread about this recently; CJ Sansom's overuse of the word 'sardonic' is really starting to bother me.

Hurrah for the news that Shardlake will go on withElizabeth. I read them all in a Tudor orgy ( damn all easy buy ebooks- am now penniless) and am off to heck out queens gambit- thanks for the tip. Let's hope it's in the E library.
Jack is fab but can't see him playing the same role; S needs a headstrong youth to counterbalance him so I reckon Nicholas is a shoe-in as The Muscle and J will be a wily politico using his old Cromwelly contacts... Get writing CJ!

Hooray, you're here Treacle!

Lewis Collins?! Really?! Well, he was a teenage crush of mine but I can't say Jack springs to mind when I picture him.

Yes, I am not sure why a man as clever as Sansom should allow himself to get fixated on certain words and phrases. Use a thesaurus man, if you really can't think of another word. I thought this book's top phrase was 'God give you good morrow'. It may be historically accurate, but I had occasion to look back at Sovereign earlier, and he was content to use plain 'good morning' then.

And hello MrsWooster too.

The thing with Nicholas though is

a) he is from the gentry, like Shardlake himself, so I don't see him being enough of a counterpoint to Shardlake and

b) (and I admit this is probably my misconception as it wasn't really bourn (sp?) out in the latter part of the book) I picture Nicholas as a rather weedy type. Brought up on the finer points of swordplay no doubt, but not particularly strong. Whereas Barak was right out of the gutter and exuded muscles and raw power.

I think that when Jack was introduced in Dark Fire than it described him as having dark wavy hair, and I think that's what did it! Although I may have remembered that incorrectly and have been visualising him incorrectly for ages...

Yes, for a sidekick I think Jack was great. He was the opposite of Shardlake in every way, all earthy and rough. I saw Nicholas being set up as a new sidekick as the book progressed, although I didn't see Jack ending up as he did. But Nicholas seemed to transform very quickly from haughty irresponsible posh boy to reliable accomplice, I think I would have liked to see the character develop over a longer period of time.

I like the character of Tamasin, but in the back of my mind I can't help thinking that in the books she is described as being strong, smart, a bit mouthy and it is all 'oh, Tamasin, she is such a strong woman' when in reality in the 1500s would a woman like that not just have been viewed as a nag and a scold?. There was a mention of another woman in the book, who was described as a shrew for bossing her husband around, yet it is sort of hinted at that Jack is a bit under the thumb.

I feel a bit bad, because I actually do like these books and I can see that I am just picking holes in them!

Yes I agree absolutely with you (apart from the Lewis Collins bit!)

I too would have liked a slower development for Nicholas. I can't quite remember the detail but something in the early part of the book suggested he was going to be totally unsuitable as a companion. I even briefly wondered if he was going to betray Shardlake. And then, suddenly, he is right there ready to take Barak's place as the reliable sidekick .

And yes, Tamasin is a great character but surely by Tudor standards she would be considered a scold. I sometimes wonder about scolds and ducking stools. Would every dominant woman end up on one or only those whose entire relationship with their husbands had broken down? I'm not quite sure how to take some of the seemingly modern characteristics Sansom writes about like the woman with agoraphobia or the man who enjoys being beaten by prostitutes. I suppose these things must have occurred still, but I am not so sure Shardlake would have had such a modern acceptance of them.