I'm over 50 Always loved Jane Austen , but now on re-reading ..

[Laska42]

I'm thinking Marianne Dashwood is just a spoilt unrealistic and totally stupid brat.. I want to slap her!
Ok rant over ..

I'm going to stand up for Fanny, too. And as for marrying HC, he's the sort of bloke that if she described him on MN everyone would be saying 'Red Flags' right left and centre - basically he just wants all the women to be in love with him, and is piqued because Fanny sees right through him.

And surely the point of Fanny is that she's been bullied and treated as worthless throughout her childhood, and the fact that she can stand up to her family at all (and see through HC) shows real strength of character.

I find the lack of assertiveness in Austen's women excruciating. Am I the only person that wants to just shake them out of their modesty? I find it impossible to read and care - is that wrong?

Lack of assertiveness? See Emma Woodhouse / Lizzy / Mary Crawford / Lucy Steele etc etc. And even insipid little Fanny Price asserts herself - unfortunately it's pretty much always to say, 'No' to everything (Fanny Price as feminist icon - now there's a thought).

I find all the books stifling and claustrophobic. Like being locked in a room with people making the best of their incarceration. And the wiki rundown of the narrative could be translated easily to Albert Square. It's all what if, should have, could have, nearly maybe, misunderstandings, missed phonecalls/letters, dropped stitches.

Perhaps it's just not for me.

I don't really agree with lack of assertiveness. Even Charlotte Lucas accepted Mr Collins proposal right away. She wanted a home of her own and knew a marriage proposal would be less and less likely so she just went for it and didn't let the chance go by./ Of course she shouldn't have had to do this but that was her situation at the time. And it didn't seem like she regretted the decision.

As I said on an earlier thread today, my dd says that Northhanger Abbey is the best portrayal of teenager friendships she has ever read in fiction.....,

And will somebody explain to me how Catherine de Bourgh is an unassertive woman........

The stifling feeling in the books is a reflection of the narrowness of women's lives, the lack of opportunities. Apart from Catherine Morland, all of the heroines are very assertive

MrsHenry that's the thing - they may be assertive but what are they being assertive about - there are no real choices given to them, no real experiences outside their oppressed worlds.

Takver-I like fanny too, she shows surprising determination when she refuses to be in the play (and upsetting her beloved Edmund) and defying sir Thomas (who took her in as a charity case). I would have liked to see her marrying Henry Crawford though, he seemed to be just about to make the transition from irresponsible flirt to conscientious landowner. He cares enough about her to visit her in Portsmouth, and all the while she stays mooning over Edmund who can't even be bothered to write to her.

Wilcommen- you are aware of the date the books were written, aren't you? And the social mores of the time?

Of course Hakluyt I understand the context but I can't help thinking that if it were updated it wouldn't be much different, there is something complacent about their oppression. I've probably got it all wrong, not re-read for 30 years and memory not that great but that's the feeling I remember back then when I studied it for A level.

I'd also recommend "Letters to Alice on first reading Jane Austen" by Fay Weldon to anyone struggling with why these books are so great and looking for a bit of feminist context as to how they are a triumph over the limitations placed on 18th century women.

Thank you MrsCakes :)

Yes - the Fay Weldon is lovely. I was v pleasantly surprised by it actually, having thought she'd be coming over all Margaret Atwood on me.

Glad I'm not the only one who sympathises with Fanny. Has anyone read Evelina by Fanny Burney? It's been ages since I last read it, but I'm now wondering if Fanny Price is partly based on Evelina. Shy, naive, terrible relatives, refuses to fall for dashing charmers.

I've always thought that Austen did push the boundaries with her heroines - within the context of early 19thC social mores. Charlotte Lucas's awful marriage of desperation was a searing attack on the dependence of women on their making a prudent marriage, whatever the cost. At least I think that's what Austen meant. I need to have a re-read.

Yes, I've read, 'Evelina.'

I still don't fully understand how the scathing wit that was Jane could create Fanny and not proceed to tear her to pieces.

No, that I can't argue with

I do love Austen. I think life probably was very tough for young women back then. Especially if they fell on 'hard times'. They needed the security of a husband who was financially and socially solid, or life was very miserable for them. Genteel poverty was the,phrase, I believe. The Miss Bates character in Emma is an example of this. I too would say that Eliza Bennett is my favorite heroine. Turning Darcy down at first for his sneering at her family ( who were fairly sneer worthy, let's face it) and giving the magnificent Lady Catherine her pedigree! I liked Mr Bennett too. Not an involved parent, but very dry sense of humour that I enjoy. I suspect beaten down by the level of stupid in the house over time.

I think Austen portrays the difficulties faced by women brilliantly.

The Bennets: will be penniless thanks to an entailed estate and feckless parents (Mr Bennet is really not an innocent - he's a neglectful and passive father at best) who saved no money for their settlements.

The Dashwoods: primogeniture places them at the mercy of their avaricious brother and sister in law.

Fanny Price: poor and female, her choices are zero. At least William gets the opportunity for independence in the navy.

Anne Elliot: no longer a fresh faced teenager, her life dictated to by a shallow father obsessed with the Elliot name and rank.

Emma: a scathing indictment of what it is to be rich, pretty and utterly spoiled. Austen is very very careful to show that Emma's worst social crime is to expose Miss Bates - poor and middle aged and single - to ridicule. I know many don't like Mr Knightley but I love him because he is the only person who actually expects Emma to behave like a decent human being and not a coddled princess, and is hard on her (even if it's just pointing out that she never practised the piano or read enough improving literature.)

Catherine: one of a big family. Marriage is her only route out of a life looking after younger siblings and the poor of the parish. If she hadn't been fortunate enough to meet Henry Tilney, she could have been another Miss Bates.

The price of transgression in Austen's world is very clear. Lydia gets off amazingly lightly compared to Eliza. Maria Bertram suffers a fate worse than death, living with Aunt Norris in the country. Austen is far from a social revolutionary, of course. She's a clear sighted realist who created Charlotte Lucas, and poor Jane Fairfax (who doesn't really get a happy ever after - Frank Churchill is awful) However, I just can't see her as complacent. I think her understanding of human nature is second to none in English novels. (I know a Lydia Bennet. And a Mr Collins. And a Mrs Elton.)

Can't agree re Frank Churchill. It's clear that he and Jane Fairfax absolutely dote on each other. He's more easy going than she, obviously, and his life without her would inevitably have been 'happier' than hers without him (doomed to a future lived indebted to the abominable Mrs Elton and her almost certainly abominable friends) but the Donwell party makes it pretty clear that Frank would be wretched without her. His joy in her once the secret is out is charming.

Oh god I think Churchill is an absolute louse! He forces a vulnerable girl into a secret engagement, which is very compromising. He allows her to suffer the attentions of Mrs Elton instead of standing up to his aunt. And then he positively gloats over Jane in public, while a few months earlier his idea of fun was to engage Emma is some really nasty bitchiness about her appearance. Not to mention the Dixon game and exposing her to comment by allowing gossip about the source of the piano he sends her. Dreadful dreadful man. Mr Knightley is right about him.

Forces?
She's not all that vulnerable either - she could have gone to Mr Dixon and/or Colonel Campbell easily enough.

I don't think he's entirely innocent, obviously. His flirtation with Emma and his allowing her to continue in the Mr Dixon delusion is naive at best and mean at worst, but he's hardly in the grinning maniac, 'Lock her up until she loves me' line that Stephenson's Pamela gets, for example.

Remus-I find jane Austen is quite sarcastic about fanny. At the end she doesn't say Edmund falls in love with fanny, just he became as keen to marry her as much as she could wish (or something like that). Seeing as fanny has been lapping up any crumb of attention form him, her expectations (wishes) are very low, and she's happy enough to catch him on the rebound (there was something else about 'perfect' timing. I'm not a huge fanny fan, but I found it engaging to have a heroine who was neither witty or articulate but still somehow propels the story forward.