The Black Moth - Georgette Heyer

[lazymonkeyface]

Is today when we review it?

Is there already a thread? I can't find it. Can someone link if there is?

If there isn't - I just couldn't get on with it. I'm still not passed chapter 5. It's awkwardly written for me and just too much information, like she was trying to be too cleaver iyswim.

I suppose the lack of banter and spark between Jack and Diana could be down to her age. I'm guessing that as a 17yo in the 1920s she wouldn't have had a lot of experience of men and relationships so the improvement in the interchanges between the heroes and heroines in later novels would have reflected her increasing knowledge of that side of things.

The story as I understand was written on the fly, without pre-planning, so I think she fell for Andover but then realised that a) her tedious hero had to get the girl and b) Andover had behaved so appallingly that he couldn't be allowed to end up with any woman. So These Old Shades was to some extent an effort to put that right - to give a character who was essentially Andover the chance to behave shockingly, but not too badly, and to end up with the girl.

The plot of These Old Shades is completely different though. It's only in Devil's Cub that Avon's son abducts a woman like Andover does (though unlike Andover he thinks she's willing and when she makes it clear that she's not he steps away - which is why he's able to be the hero).

The duke of Avon is mentioned separately to duke of Andover but it does seem to have prequel feel to it.

Mary does have to shoot Dominic to encourage him to step away though, Dilys

Mmmm, yes, she does have to make it very very clear indeed.

This has been an experience, it's well over ten years since I've read this book.

Like many of you this is no where near my favorite but for a teenage writer I think it's pretty remarkable.

However, the thing that's really struck me (and again, I'm not the first on the thread to say it) was how blase the book was about the Duke's behaviour. I know the novel is of it's of it's time but it was quite uncomfortable to read, "He was enjoying her as he had rarely enjoyed a woman before. Others had sobbed and implored..." and it gets worse later on, not just the actions but the over blown melodramatic way they were written . I'm doubly getting the grues because I used to quite fancy him as a "bad boy" in my teens, please pass me a time machine so I can give my teenaged self a slap. I do remeber the re-worked version of the Duke of Avon being a big improvement so These Old Shades is going to be very interesting.

However there are plenty of glimmers of the Heyer I love mostly in the supporting characters. Miles and Molly interactions seem very natural and light, Chilter the brave little clerk makes a great star in his own little story at the start and a nice bit of the finish and Andrew is a classic care for nothing who's quite decent underneath.

Andrew becomes Rupert in TOS I'd say

Dylis, the Duke of Avon in These Old Shades had tried to abduct Lady Merivale, in the the back story. So I think maybe GH was trying to give Andover a happy ending all of his own when she wrote it.

I have to say, though, the description of Wyncham at the start of chapter three is godawful. So flowery and overblown. Just what you might expect from a 17yo!

I'd forgotten about Lady Merrivale. And good call about Andrew => Rupert, I love Rupert.

Shall we skip the frankly rubbish Powder and Patch and go straight onto These Old Shades?

I'm not a great Powder and Patch fan either but I'm happy to grind through it if others want to stick to the publication order.

However, I do think it makes sense to read These Old Shades straight away while Andover is still fresh in our minds, Devil's Cub too? (I had to resist reading the abduction parts of Devil's Cub last night to compare them).

I know for completeness you'd then need to read Regency Buck and then Infamous Army but they're much later historically and the Avon characters that we know from the previous books only have minor parts in Infamous Army.

Somebody had a gavel we need a bang.

I think 'these old shade' next and then 'devils cub' afterwards.

Dilys Re. the book being written on the fly, wasn't it for an ill brother? I've found something about a brother Boris. Independant Booksellers Net. Haven't read it in full yet.

Yes, in the Jane Aiken Hodge biography she says GH wrote the Black Moth for her ill younger brother.

Agree with everyone's points though I would just point out that in Devil's Cub Vidal sets out to punitively rape Mary. I re-read it recently and was appalled. There is no way she'd have written that scene in subsequent books, it's classic unthinking misogyny a la Jeffrey Farnol et al.

To be honest I think the unfortunately named villain Tracy is as much of a cardboard cut-out as John and Diana.... he's pinched straight from other historical novels of the period, with his paper-white skin, sinister drawl etc. But the couples are very good, and I wonder how she managed to get the nuances of marital relationships in this way.

What impressed me most reading it now was her research - I set out to write the odd historical novel in my teens and I never got beyond page 4 because I was overcome by the depth of my ignorance. What did they wear, what did they eat, how were the houses laid out, etc. She has clearly done some proper reading (the description of clothing is rather over-elaborate to reflect this) and to be honest I think that alone is a real achievement for a 17-year-old.

And yes, PLEASE can we skip Powder and Patch and go straight to These Old Shades (which was my favourite book when I was ten and I still know it virtually by heart )

I'm happy to read these old shades, then devils cub, then infamous army if thats what the majority want?

please excuse the mistakes. Trying to keep the touchpad away from my 7 month old while I type!

I'll go with that (skipping Powder and Patch).

I never really liked These Old Shades, there just seemed something a bit sinister about the relationship between the older man & young girl dressed as a boy...love Devil's Cub though.

Mmm MrsHels I agree it's a bit unsatisfactory - she hero worships him, but only because he isn't as horrible to her as everyone else had been up to that point. Doesn't seem like a great basis for a relationship .

If you look at that link I posted here it is again the publication order is listed at the bottom and if you remove anything but the Georgian/Regency novels I think 4 have some kind of adbduction and attempted rape soft focussed and two don't. I don't think that is a feature of any of the books after 1934, so she simply grew up/grew out of it?

She supressed quite a few of her earlier books so she definitely recognised that there were some quality issues with her early work.

MrsHelsBells I remember reading These Old Shades at about 13 and being astonished that a nineteen year old would want to marry a 40 year old. I've always thought this was not unusal for the time but I haven't found any examples yet.

MooncupGoddess said "I would just point out that in Devil's Cub Vidal sets out to punitively rape Mary..." I was itching to read that scene last night to compare, I'm wondering if GH saw Vidal's actions as more acceptable than Andover's because once he recognised Mary's virtue he restrained himself when Andover didn't care one way or the other, which is horrible, but again is probably an attitude of her and the periods time.

If, as and when DD wants to read these I'm going to have to have a few conversations with her first.

Devil's Cub is actually a really interesting book in terms of reflecting a transition between Heyer's earlier, more derivative works and her later, more assured, wittier and more humane ones. And yes, Vidal is a much better drawn character than Andover in many ways - and changes enormously in the course of his journey with Mary.

Re your DD, my mother was always very keen to emphasis to me that although dominating heros like Worth (etc) might seem very exciting and romantic, in real life they would be a total nightmare to be married to!

"..in real life they would be a total nightmare to be married to!" LOL

Exactly, like reading her Cinderella in the Doctors waiting room when she was four and finishing with "Don't pick a husband just because he finds your shoe."

The lines that Heyer draws between Andover's behaviour and Vidal's are very clear.
Firstly, Andover is certainly a rapist. Diana is saved from him but it's clear that other unnamed women in the past have not been. His friends are shocked only because Diana is from a respectable family.
Secondly Diana is a "flawless" victim, clear in her rejection of Tracy's advances and abducted at gunpoint and then by use of chloroform. Mary's position (afa Vidal knows) appears more ambiguous from a 1930's perspective, though not, of course, from where we sit in the 21st century.

Anyway, I guess we'll go into Vidal's character when we get to Devil's Cub.

yy Dilys I remember noticing the distinction drawn between "ladies" (who are not to be abducted, raped if you are an honorable man) and "non ladies" (fair game it seems ).

Mary is much more interesting than Diana