What's your opinion of the recommended dietary guidelines?

[Watchkeys]

I wonder how people who are trying to lose weight feel about 'the healthy diet' that's recommended to us, and whether they generally feel that it is, actually, a healthy diet, in terms of ensuring that we get the right nutrients.

I'm a PT, and have my own views on this, but I'm curious about how people feel about it generally, and what knowledge people base their opinions on, re nutrition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8001548/

Highlights of Current Dietary Guidelines in Five Continents

Some interesting graphics from around the world.

I think interpretation of guidelines is what needs looking at. I had one client who swore they followed the Med diet. Pizza, pasta, risotto.

Sweden has some really simple visuals

In addition to the sources mentioned above by coronabeer, may I suggest the Sigma Nutrition podcast for science-based nutrition information. But specifically regarding methodology, episode 255 discusses, Danny Lennon with Alan Flanagan (Ph.D nutrition,) the reality of conducting nutrition research. How, for instance, it is completely unrealistic to expect Randomized Control Trials on most nutrition issues and the important role of observational data historically, the problems with meta analyses in nutrition research.

That's really interesting, thank you for posting it. Funny how there's a common theme...😁

Yes, he’s another one I trust (although I avoided listening to Sigms Nutrition for a while, because I got it into my head for some unknown reason they were just flogging vitamins/supplements).

Also Simon Hill and Chris Macaskill (Plant Chompers on YouTube).

The days of Dr. Doris Calloway and Dr. Sheldon Margen and their “Penthouse” research which was chiefly funded by NIH and NASA are over. The major emphases were human protein and mineral requirements, especially zinc, iron and calcium. The results of these studies provided information that has been basic to establishing the currently used Recommended Daily Allowances made by the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Research Council.

In the modern age, sealing conscientious objectors into blue zoot suits and gradually reducing their protein intake to zero, is quite rightly not encouraged.

Thanks @ropework Useful info about Sigms Nutrition

Well, as I said in my OP, I was interested in others' views, so this thread has been great. Not interested in proving I'm right to those who have challenged me. The research is out there, meta analyses, RCTs, for you and you could find it if you wanted to look. Not here to prove anything.

Thanks for the debate. It's been interesting to see, particularly, at what point people have chosen to get personal and make digs at me, my job etc. Demonstrates the scientific nature of their approach. People are fascinating!

I think it’s a shame you see it in those terms. You’ve consistently talked about “the science” and evidence that you base your views on, but you haven’t provided any, as far as I’m aware. You haven’t been shy to criticise sources you don’t like.

I doubt any of us are in a position to “prove” anything (although a claim - not yours - that “all the evidence shows full fat dairy is healthier” was demonstrably false.). But at least some of us have shown the evidence we have come across that informs our opinions.

As I have repeatedly said, I would be interested in your sources. Maybe I would find them more persuasive than my own? I changed my mind about the carbohydrate/insulin hypothesis, which I used to find compelling. I used to recommend the “Why we eat too much” book, but nowadays I think the author is mostly mistaken. I’m not supporting a “team” - I just want to better understand health and nutrition. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, simple as that. I could change my mind again.

Last bit, in answer to an earlier question about why I’m no longer convinced by the carbohydrate-insulin model: a documentary, maybe 5 years ago, by the van Tulleken (sp?) twins. One ate very high fat, no sugar for a week or so; the other did the opposite. I fully expected the results to show the sugar-free diet was superior, but it wasn’t. I can’t remember the programme that well, so I might have some of the details wrong. At the time I dismissed it because one of them ate a whole block of butter at one point before going on a bike ride - after all, nobody does that. But I guess the gist of it lingered in the back of my mind for some time.

Sorry to disappoint @coronabeer I appreciate everybody's contribution, and didn't come here to talk anybody round. I've found the thread quite aggressive and personal. Had it been a friendly discussion I'd probably have been more likely to detail things but frankly, in the face of some of the stuff that's been said, I can't be bothered to collate the references, just to be shot down for being a pt or not being qualified. As you say, nobody can prove anything, and I'm sure you have/will come across the same stuff as me and make your own judgements regarding its veracity. All the best to you, and thanks for the reading suggestions.

Op's evidence

Ref 1: Zoë Harcombe. The Diet Fix. Published by Short Books. 2019.
Ref 2: David Gillespie. Toxic oil: Why vegetable oil will kill you & how to save yourself. Published by Penguin. (2013).
Ref 3: www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/11/norway-lchf-the-doctor-patient-relationship/ and www.zoeharcombe.com/oslo/
Ref 4: Swagerty, DL et al. “Lactose intolerance.” American Family Physicians, 65(2), 1845-1850. (2002). www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12018807
Ref 5: Professors Jeff Volek & Stephen Phinney. The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable. Published by Beyond Obesity LLC. (2011).
Ref 6: Zoë Harcombe. The Obesity Epidemic: What caused it? How can we stop it? Published by Columbus Publishing. (2010).
Ref 7: Amrita Misha & Dr Marina Basina, clinical endocrinologist. “Why doesn’t glucagon work with alcohol?” (beyondtype1.org/why-doesnt-glucagon-work-with-alcohol/)
Ref 8: The following book explains the issues with modern wheat well: Dr William Davis. Wheat Belly. Published by Roedale. 2014.
Ref 9: www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/04/the-perfect-five-a-day/
Ref 10: https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/04/healthy-whole-grains-really/

Just another link to some dietary guideline stuff
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnWuqOxOftu/

Op's evidence

What are you doing?

Wasting far too much time trying to work out what an earth you are going on about.

Enjoy yourself. I doubt that anybody but you is interested in your opinion about what I spend my time reading. And if they are, they need to get out more!

Given the OP isn't going to share any evidence, does anyone know the study that takes about us not needing fibre? I've always been told it's important as there is a history of bowel cancer in my family but would be interested to know if it's not important.

I doubt there is a study about humans needing no dietary fibre.
There are lots of studies about us needing fibre.

OP could post a link, but they won't.

Completely agree. Even looked on Google Scholar but couldn’t find anything at all to support the idea that dietary fibre is unnecessary for human health.

Thanks. I think I already recognised some of the wording as being Zoe Harcombe’s, from a TED talk of hers I watched. She claims people don’t need fibre, right? Hmm…

Thanks @Itisyourturntowashthebath and @coronabeer; I couldn't find anything and hadn't come across it in what I'd read anywhere. I'll stick to trying to get a good amount of fibre in my diet I think!

Having had a good read of the Eatwell Guide and all the linked info plus an interesting dive into how other countries do it.

The Eatwell guide can't be accused of being snappy, to the point or having excellent graphics. In fact it comes across as rather waffly, designed by committee via e-mail with quite a discordance between the words and graphics. It really could be better.

Whereas the Eatwell guide is written to be weight maintenance guide it is interesting to note that the latest US guidance is written to have different advice for life stages including weight loss.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/21650799211026980

One takeaway from this discussion has been that a significant number of people have no idea what the guidelines state (not that that gets in the way of having an opinion about them).

At least one person talked about the food pyramid, which hasn’t been used since 2007.

A substantial proportion of people believe it advises lots of refined carbs and sugar - completely erroneously.

There’s a widespread belief that it is a unique UK approach, whereas this is also untrue. Nobody has shown a single country with significantly different guidelines.

If your go-to food guru can’t get some of these basic, easily verifiable things right, why rely on any other claims they make?

If people are asked to discuss food guidelines they will either draw on their own memory of possibly much older versions or skim read the latest version. The UK's latest version is not particularly amenable to skim reading. It could do with a redraft to improve accessibility and then some efficient promotion.

Was the OP's concept of a discussion good? Yes, it needs doing.
Did I spend part of yesterday wondering how Jeffery had fallen down the hole of conspiracy theory and become a PT rather than an App security specialist? Yes

Jeffery? Who/what’s that? (Am I embarrassingly out of touch?)

Jeffrey was a hacker who managed to capture login details and passwords of (IIRC) about 3000 MNers and publish them on Twitter. Or you could frame it another way and say Jeffrey identified flaws in MN's security.