What's your opinion of the recommended dietary guidelines?

[Watchkeys]

I wonder how people who are trying to lose weight feel about 'the healthy diet' that's recommended to us, and whether they generally feel that it is, actually, a healthy diet, in terms of ensuring that we get the right nutrients.

I'm a PT, and have my own views on this, but I'm curious about how people feel about it generally, and what knowledge people base their opinions on, re nutrition.

@Watchkeys if that is what you took from it, I'd recommend you keep advising the Eatwell Guidelines.

If you want to learn about food, how about starting with some history. It is rather good to be able to understand the background of what you wish to research
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Englishmans-Food-Five-Centuries-English/dp/0712650253
Pay special attention to the prison diets and the rationale for rationing.

These studies are all on people with diabetes, and so not generalisable.

The NHS has used evidence based research, if you have ever read the Eatwell Guide, as a PP said it is not that different to the Mediterranean diet. If you need more personalised help with your eating - the NHS employs dieticians.

The Eatwell Guide says eat less sugar and processed carbs, just like you.

I am assuming that you also think that the Med Diet is rubbish.

If what is what I took what from? You're not making sense.

As I've said, I'll be sticking to current and reliable studies for my information.

@Itisyourturntowashthebath

The NHS has used evidence based research

How do you know this? What evidence? What you've posted so far has been some shaky science articles and a book from 1994.

I think it is terrible they are still peddling the line that beige carbs should be a third of your plate when the research all points to fruit and veg needing to be 50%+

It alao wants you to choose highly processed low fat dairy when all the recent research says the high fat versions are healthier.

Raisins should not be counted as one of your 5 a day but appearvin the fruit and veg section.

The guidelines also suggest having upf cereals and bagels which really should be discouraged.

There is also no mention of fermented foods which are really important for good health.

@Bubbles254

I think it is terrible they are still peddling the line that beige carbs should be a third of your plate when the research all points to fruit and veg needing to be 50%+

What evidence points to that? I'm not being argumentative, as some PPs seem to think, I'm generally interested to read it. Thank you.

WHO - shaky science
Stamford - shaky science
Cambridge - shaky science

Where do you get your science?

Somewhat surprisingly the US dietary guidelines 'myplate' call for 50% fruit and veg which I assume must be evidence based.
https://med.libretexts.org/Courses/Sierra_College/Sierra%3A_NUTF10_(Teh)/02%3A_Achieving_a_Healthy_Diet/2.06%3A_My_Plate_-_A_Guide_for_Eating_More_Healthfully

Where do you get your science

Why are you trying to catch me out, @Itisyourturntowashthebath ? I didn't say that those authoritative bodies are producing shaky science. I said that when they themselves say that 'maybe something might be happening, so we'll have a guess at roughly the right thing to do', that's not 'reliable evidence'. And that when they say they've got to think about production and supply, as well as what's healthiest for us, they are not solely thinking about what's healthiest for us.

They are reporting reliably what they know, what proof they have, and what they're estimating/guessing. They are reporting what they're influenced by. I believe them. Why don't you?

First , Dr Christopher Gardner’s DIETFITS study at Stanford where people were randomly assigned to a healthy low fat or healthy low carb diet for a year and closely monitored - one of the largest studies of that nature. I watched a lecture about the results, fully expecting to hear that low carb led to superior results - but no, virtually identical. Some did well, some not so well, but the results were very comparable. So then they tried testing for insulin resistance, and seeing if insulin resistant people had better results on a low carb diet. No, just the same again.

The carb-insulin model would also seem to imply that people can’t lose weight consuming lots of sugar even if they have a calorie deficit. Not true.

A metabolic ward study by Kevin Hall and others showed that calorie for calorie, reduced carbohydrate did not result in greater fat loss. If you look on Google Scholar, you will find links to many peer-reviewed studies which give similar results. I haven’t got time right now, but I’ll try to link to some later.

@Watchkeys go have a walk about your local allotment plot. Food has to be produced and supplied to the people who eat it.
No point someone says everyone should eat an avocado a day if global avocado supply is not 8 billion a day.

@Bubbles254

Thank you for posting that.

which I assume must be evidence based

Why? This is the dangerous assumption I'm challenging.

I use commonsense and just eat what I want , never been overweight

Badly worded but I assume it must be based on some evidence, I have not considered the quality of the evidence.

The US guidance mentions 13 studies but I have not looked at the details of what they contain.

Thanks @coronabeer , I'll have a look.

Yes, it's time consuming. I expect that's why people prefer to trust what they're told than find out for themselves.

@Itisyourturntowashthebath

go have a walk about your local allotment plot. Food has to be produced and supplied to the people who eat it. No point someone says everyone should eat an avocado a day if global avocado supply is not 8 billion a day

Thanks for this. There are also other implications to the statement, such as 'If our country needs to sell 1 million units of this grain/that milk/this sugar', we need to make sure the people know that they need to eat it.'

If you'd rather trust the government than analyse the research for yourself, you've got a lot of company. Can you post any studies that do prove your point? Oh, hang on... what is the point you're trying to make? Just realised we're discussing the nitty gritty when I don't think you've actually said what you're trying to say?

What research? And where do the guidelines say “ beige carbs”? They specifically state to choose whole grain or unprocessed where possible.

The Mediterranean diet is almost universally recognised as the most healthy diet, and that includes complex carbohydrates.

I don’t think the evidence about low fat versus high fat dairy is as clear as you think

Eg “Participants with the highest intake of low-fat dairy products had the lowest mortality risk score and exhibited the best LDL-C profile. Such favourable associations were not observed with cheese consumption.” (European journal of preventive cardiology 21 (12), 1557-1567, 2014)

“Intake of high-fat dairy, but not low-fat dairy, was related to a higher risk of mortality after breast cancer diagnosis.” (Journal of National Cancer Institute)

More recently, “In conclusion, we found high-fat milk consumption was associated with a higher risk of all-cause, CVD, and cancer mortality. However, total dairy consumption was associated with lower risk of CVD mortality”
(Critical reviews in food science and nutrition 62 (13), 3598-3612, 2022)

@Watchkeys

Out of interest, which research studies/books/whatever do you base your opinions on?

I read a lot by Christopher Gardner , Kevin Hall, Layne Norton, Gil Carvalho, Kevin Bass, Will Bulsievicz. Some others, whose names have slipped my mind. They’ve all people who study this subject for a living and are well- regarded in their profession.

Intake of high-fat dairy, but not low-fat dairy, was related to a higher risk of mortality after breast cancer diagnosis.” (Journal of National Cancer Institute)

But where is the generalised study that stated that the same is true for everyone who doesn't have cancer, too? You can't take one study of people who have been diagnosed with a potentially deadly disease, and assume that their biology will be representative of everybody.

In conclusion, we found high-fat milk consumption was associated with a higher risk of all-cause, CVD, and cancer mortality. However, total dairy consumption was associated with lower risk of CVD mortality”
(Critical reviews in food science and nutrition 62 (13), 3598-3612, 2022

This is association, as is the other one in the same post. Correlation. Not causation. It's so important to recognise this. Otherwise lots of studies are classed as proof when they're not, and we'll be suing Netflix for being the primary cause of obesity (or something equally as ridiculous)

No studies are classified as proof, just varying degrees of statistical significance.

@Watchkeys

You were claiming that full fat dairy was healthier; I responded that it was not so straightforward. There are numerous studies I can link to that support my case - where is your “proof” that full fat is healthier?

apologies to @Watchkeys, it was @Bubbles254 who made that claim.

Nevertheless, a single study is enough to show the assertion “all the recent research says the high fat versions are healthier” is untrue. There are plenty more studies showing similar.

How can you show the effect on breast cancer mortality, other than by looking at people with breast cancer? If they don’t have breast cancer, they’re not going to die from it?

Really have to sign off for a bit, but regarding dairy, I think recent evidence suggests the fats in yoghurt (possibly cheese, can’t remember off the top of my head) are different from those in milk and cream. So high fat yoghurt okay, milk and cream not so okay. I think.

Google scholar could help you with dairy
https://academic.oup.com/advances/article-abstract/13/4/1063/6425730
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2020.1867500

Pretty much as coronabeer says.