Bodily autonomy and other people's anger...

[FastAndFury]

I have noticed in these boards and other boards where weight loss injections are discussed, that some posters get very angry, irate or even venomous towards posters who admit to using wl injections outside of guidelines.

For example, if someone injects more or less than once a week, does the golden dose, titrates up too quickly, stays on a dose longer than recommended, uses WL drugs when they are less than 30 BMI, wants to get to a BMI below the middle of the healthy weight range etc... I could go on.

My question is why do people get so angry about these things? About these decisions other people make about their own bodies?

Surely we have bodily autonomy and can make our own decisions about our own bodies.

People will always make unwise decisions about their bodies and their health. People smoke, drink, use drugs, eat chocolate, stuff pizza, eat takeaways, over exercise, under exercise, drink coffee, consume energy drinks etc... but those are our decisions to make as adults. Many many people treat their bodies against the recommended advice and guidelines and sometimes even in ways which are against the law. Why do other people get so so angry about people taking WL injections against guidelines?

One poster expressing anger or venom at another for using a WL drug differently to how they would choose to use it, makes no sense to me.

Surely we have bodily autonomy and can make our own decisions, however unwise, about weight loss drugs and how we wish to use them?

I'm aware of the anger and horrible attitudes towards over weight people. However, surely for those of us that have been on the receiving end our response to other people should not be to be equally mean?? But instead to realise life is more complex.

If I have an insatiable urge to eat because I'm ravenously hungry and then choose to eat a pizza, I don't think it's helpful for people to tell me that was a stupid decision and that if I keep satisfying my hunger by eating pizza I'll be a drain on the NHS.

Equally if someone has bad side effects from mj and struggles with the satiety rollercoaster and wants to split their dose, I don't think it's helpful to say 'well that's stupid it's against the guidelines you'll end up ill and a drain on the nhs'

Equally if someone is distressed by thier weight being much bigger than it's ever been, cannot get it down through hours in the gym and constant calorie counting which mentally drains them, and so decides to take mounjaro when they r BMI 28 not 30, I don't think it's helpful to say 'are you stupid? That's going to cost the NHS money. Stop being an idiot/fraudster etc..'

And the examples continue..

People's choices and decisions about the actions a they take are far more complex than them being stupid or intentionally trying to take resources from the NHS. We take action to relive an urge, or unpleasant feelings, or mental stressor, or physical craving or whatever. And that action, whether it be eating unhealthy things, overeating calories, splitting an mj dose, smoking, or whatever, is not always wise and doesn't always feel like a conscious choice or that we have an alternative (because often all the alternatives we have already tried, have failed)...

Reddit is indeed great for sharing information, same as MN is. But it's all anecdotal. It's just going to be other users saying well jabbing twice a week/ going up a dose early/ starting MJ with a BMI of 25 worked fine for me. Just because it was fine for that person doesn't mean it's automatically a sensible or safe idea though.

I don't think its wise and I would worry for them, but I wouldn't call them stupid or get angry. If someone is a healthy weight and wants to loose weight using mj then their current weight must be really distressing them. They have likely tried many other means of loosing weight and are struggling for some reason, and they are possibly lacking in body confidence.

Telling them they r a drain on the NHS, or stupid or whatever is really not going to help. It won't dissuade someone. It will probably just make them feel even more shitty about themself and even more driven to loose the weight.

I think it's wiser to hear the person's reasons for why they wish to resort to a WL medication. Listen to their logic, understand how they feel and what they see as their options and then, if we r actually genuinely worried (and not just angry or nasty or frustrated) with them, then suggest a few helpful resources.or ideas to try (such as counselling or whatever).

Most people don't mind advice and suggestions. Some people may feel or believe deep down their decision is unwise, but just don't know what else to do. Some people ay be grateful for advice to help them generate alternative solutions.

Pretty much no-one likes being called stupid or ignorant or a drain on resources etc.. and it barely ever results in change. It usually just makes someone feel really bad and more than likely entrenches their views or engrains their behaviour. So why do it.

People are certainly free to make unwise decisions (in whatever form they may take), people are also free to disagree with those decisions. If you think someone's post crosses a line, report it. You will never have a forum where people using medication off prescription and posting about it won't draw some criticism. This is the internet, everyone is anonymous. Even on reddit posters often get down voted for recommending off label use.

I don't think I've ever posted a criticism of someone's use. But I do think a tightening of regulations is coming and some off label use practices may be harder to do (e.g dosing every 5 days rather than 7).

No it's not.

I don't understand people who like above, do their research on social media / Reddit, and complain it's not working, or they are having dodgy side effects when they've bought from Aunty Jackie's sisters brothers boy at the local beauty salon.

Or those who feel that their solid weight loss of 2 pounds a week is not enough and they should be on at least a stone loss a day

This thread is a bit strange but also packed with the seeds of a whole bunch of separate arguments.

Anyway, what I’m dying to know is why do care about strangers getting angry with each other?

Do you feel they’re angry at you by proxy?

For the same reason I'd have something to say if somebody admitted to taking too much codeine, or their blood thinners. It's dangerous hence being prescription only.

Why do you care about why I care about strangers getting angry with people?

This is what I think

But it's not hard for people to get it legitimately. It's just filling out basic medical.information, submitting a photo or having a video consultation. All responsible stuff. What hard about that?

I don’t care enough to start a thread about it 😂

Fair enough! Doesn't take much longer to reply to a thread than start it though!

But in answer to why do.i care? I suppose I don't like to watch when someone comes looking for advice and then they get kind of shouted at or verbally abused! You expect it on AIBU, but I don't like it so much on threads like this. Makes me sad how people get treated when often they r seeking advice and feeling vulnerable

I mean, 'doesn't take much longer to start a thread than reply to it!'

Yes. It seems to me that sometimes just because a poster dares to ask a question, however Genuinely or politely, people think that that gives them the right to give rude responses like @graceinspace999 . Such responses show no intellectual or genuine interest in the subject or want to help people usually, they just like to mouth off and close any any discussion down. A pastime for them perhaps, but when the motivation seems to be unpleasant, even nasty, I think the OP and others have a right to respond.

I think it's mostly an old-fashioned prejudice towards obese people. We're gluttons who can't control ourselves and WLIs are cheating.

I think a lot of the snippy Nelly know all posters could have an unfortunate texting tone IYSWIM - I’m talking about the ones on MJ who stick to the rules vehemently and don’t like anyone diverging. They come across angry and they don’t understand why anyone would not do anything to the letter. It’s just their personality/beliefs/ethics.
I get frustrated by some posters who are ill and not eating properly but i wouldn’t be nasty or snippy. As for the weirdos who haunt this board who aren’t on MJ - now that’s something I really don’t understand. Fuck knows what they get out of it but they tend to be ridiculously angry.

My question is why do people get so angry about these things? About these decisions other people make about their own bodies?

I honestly think it's a big chunk of panic. People on these boards tend to be people taking the drug and anyone who's been taking it longer than about a month has seen at least one phase of tightening the rules because of the way that (some) people are playing fast and loose and causing themselves problems that are triggering the rule changes.

I think people who have found a light on their lifelong battle with obesity are now very scared it might get snatched away from them and that it causing them to react badly whenever anyone appears to be publically NOT following the guidelines. They worry it might trigger more rule changes that eventually cut them out of it.

I think you might be right. Anger is often driven by fear.

So far though, the rule changes have all been positive in my opinion. It's good to force online prescribers to be more responsible and the changes which have come in all seem sensible and positive.

But I get the fear. I too, do not want to loose mj as it's been a miracle for me :)

I agree - the rule changes are fine by me too. But I just think lots of people have had their lives marred by obesity and may have spent years/decades feeling its hurt. Their fear now is just testament to the pain they have faced and their relief at maybe not having to face it anymore...

I think people worry that it will cause prescribers to lock down harder on the drug if people don't follow the guidelines.

I don't get the anger but it does surprise me that people are so quick and happy to mess around with dosing of a prescription drug. If you were prescribed antidepressants you wouldn't just double the dose because you'd had a bad week or cut the tablet into quarters and take a quarter alternate days. However it is a bit of a challenge as a lot of people don't want to move up as fast as prescribers recommend so I guess anyone not going up every 4 weeks is technically not following the guidelines.

Lots of people who have been chronically obese for years see this as a miracle and want to protect it as it is likely the only way they have ever been able to consistently lose weight.

I find it interesting that some people leap to the assumption that it must be jealousy. I wonder what the long term implications may be for those who abuse the medication, and I do think there’s still a question mark over whether the injections truly help to learn genuine lifelong healthy eating habits to maintain without medication. I say this as someone who started with a BMI of 46 myself and have got myself down to BMI of 25 through healthy diet and very little exercise (due to a disability). I am not for one moment saying it’s been easy at all, and I did not have the luxury of weight loss jabs. I can hand on heart say I’m not jealous whatsoever, I am relieved I’ve learned how to eat healthily and am much closer to my goal weight now. I wish anyone on them well, and I hope that people don’t put their quest for a low weight above their common sense when it comes to medication.

Because if people misusing the drugs cause it to only be prescribed by GPs most of us will lose access as it will be completely unaffordable or only available to a tiny minority. If you want to make up your own rules at least have the decency to do it quietly.

It won't happen that the drug is only prescribed by GPs. It is a godsend to the NHS and the government that people r paying for this privately themself as it will save the NHS millions by reducing the obesity burden on the NHS while costing them nothing. A financial no brainer. It's in no-one (in powerful positions) interest to move this to gp prescription only. The drug companies are also happy with all the private sales so it's in their interest to keep sales to a max and keep the pressure on authorities.

Personally, I think the ideal would be for it to be prescribed only after private face to face consultation eg at a boots pharmacy or pop up pharmacies. But that's unlikely to happen.

People need not be afraid of the small minority flouting the guidelines. In fact they are helping ensure those prescribing the drugs are being as ethical as possible and forcing the prescribers to keep everything as safe as possible which is no bad thing. I still there could be more done to tighten up things and ensure under age people and underweight people cannot access these meds and harm themselves.

Desperate people going off label are no threat to people who are obese and finding the miracle that is mounjaro. I get that people r scared though.

This is it in a nutshell. The jealousy argument does not make any sense to me since the people critiquing are themselves taking MJ (for the most part). As I say I don't post critiques of people's choices because that isn't going to change their behaviour but I think it is inevitable that regulations will tighten because of how people are publically discussing their MJ misuse. As a result of more regulation prices may increase. More regulation isn't necessarily a bad thing, in some ways it is needed (discount referral codes can get in the bin!) but a price increase would hit lot of people quite hard.

Yes! I hate that too which was why I was so curious.

No matter what question is asked re weight loss drugs some argument will take off.

The reason I read these weight loss drug threads is because my husband has been on them for years.

Arguments have already started and someone below (who misunderstood me completely) has already unloaded themselves of a belly full of crap in my direction because we cannot dare ask any questions about WLD on a WLD forum 🤷‍♀️