BFing + solids +night wakings + allergies + food refuser. HELP I'm in a total MESS!

[kalo12]

Basically I did weaning all wrong, was on hol, all my friends babies were just opening their mouths eating everything. I thought it was easy so didn't really get too stressed , gave jars etc.

Well, ds is now 9 1/2 months and barely eats solids and I don't know what i'm doing anymore. alot of advice : he's teething, its a phase, tried blw? etc. Taken it all on board but not really getting anywhere.

He is allergic to dairy and gluten. He prefers feeding himself rice cakes mainly but not much else. Used to sometimes have mush of chicken and broccolli, banana rice pudding (although not bananas) but now won't take a spoon.

He wakes every hour in the night and I bf back to sleep , tried various sleep methods but he is awake all night long - for four days in a row last week, until i feed him.

I want to sort this out but don't know where to start. I'm worried he is getting enough nutrition now, and not surprisingly I've got PND.

So here's the main points to consider.

1. Is he getting too much milk which is putting him off solids? Should I do timed feeds.
2. Should I sort the feeding out first or the sleeping?
3. Should I withhold milk in the day so that he eats solids?
4. would putting him nursery away from me for bf improve things?
5. Is bf nutritious enough for under 1's
6. What is a good book? (not annabel Karmel and her stupid recipes but a step by step instruction that I can start at 9 months)

This is sending me round the twist (sorry for long post)

bump please

I know this is probably a very stupid answer but can't your HV give you any advice?

Kalo,

I can totally empathise having gone through exactly the same with my allergic child.

Everyone seems to want to give advice which although well meaning really grates, doesn't it?!?!

My son didn't take well to solids until he was about 10 or 11 months old. I've heard that allergic children are harder to wean as they are instinctively more cautious.

What worked for me was to not stress about it (which was difficult) and just keep offering him finger foods and loading spoons with puree for him to pick up himself. Eventually he realised that pear puree was nice and would let me feed him it and I thought we had it sorted, but he was really cautious with everything.

he also didn't sleep through until he was 18 months, although i suspect this was due to cutting out soya from his diet.

I woudn't worry about his nutrition as long as he is putting on weight. Bfing should be adequate until he's about 1.

I would try and introduce a bit of a routine into the feeding so that you are consistent about offering him some solids at breakfast, lunch and dinner and that he isn't too full up with milk to want to try the solids.

The most important thing is to relax as he will be picking up on your stress.

I think this is way beyond me but when you ask if you should do timed feeds - have you got any sort of eating/sleeping routine at all? could you cope with putting a vague one in place? If you have one could you list it so maybe people could tweak it for you?

In my experience my mental health improved when I knew what I was doing through the day to a certain extent - although this may be the opposite for you.

My instinct it to take it right back and make sure hes getting enough milk/things he will eat in the day so that you know come night time that hes not starving hungry and then set yourself a limit of whatever you're happy feeding during the night and stick to it - once or twice or whatever. This should have a knock on effect for at least the sleeping in the daytime.

You could then start again with the solids - either blw or pureeing - whatever you're happy with and start with a tiny amount of food a few set times of day possibly before a food if hes not too fractious and increase it gradually?

Is he pooing and weeing normally? is he still putting on weight?

I know its really hard - hang in there.

x posted with trixys good advice - especially about not stressing about it...

thanks everyone.

I have a sort of routine but it goes out with the night feedings. Basically ;

5.30 - 6 bf in bed (although sometimes has had one at 4 and 2 and 12.30 etc

7.30 - 8 ish breakfast (doesn't usually eat hardly anything - am wondering cos he's too full on milk)

11.45 lunch sometimes has 2 -3 spoons of mush a rice cake loves oven chips

1 -2 bf either before or after a nap

4 ish tea of mush / shepherds pie as finger food but hardly eats anything at all except banana rice pudding is quite sucessful at this time

6 bf and bed

8 ish wake up bf

9.30 bf
etc all night

Tricky's advice is good.

Both my DD's have allergies and feeding has been hard.

DD2 didn't really take to solids until she was over a year old. She just wanted breastmilk. She is now 2.5 and she still has a small appetite.

I would keep letting your DS have as much breastmilk as he likes and not worry too much about solids, he'll come to them when he is ready for them.

I found DD2 was much keener to eat sweet things than savoury in the beginning and prefered to feed herself.

She also woke a lot at night and always wanted to feed, I cracked when she was around 18 months and refused to feed her at night anymore. I made DH go in to her every time she woke as I just couldn't deal with it anymore. I don't have much by way of advice here as we tried everything and nothing seemed to make any difference. Sorry! It is horrible trying to deal with the sort of tiredness you are going though, I got a bit depressed too. Do you have help so that you can try to catch up on sleep at weekends say?

So in answer to your questions;

1. Is he getting too much milk which is putting him off solids? Should I do timed feeds.

I doubt it. Personally I would let him have all the milk he wants. You could try giving him solids before milk but I wouldn't withhold milk. This is my personal opinion and what a BFC told me, someone more expert here may disagree with this.

1. Should I sort the feeding out first or the sleeping?

I think you have to just let the feeding happen through time.

1. Should I withhold milk in the day so that he eats solids?

I wouldn't withhold during the day but would probably try to cut down on the night feeding. I found the only way to do this was to go cold turkey and send DH in. My DD was older though when we did this. Also you may not have a DH/DP.

1. would putting him nursery away from me for bf improve things?

No idea. My DD was a VERY clingy baby so I didn't try this. Could be a way to get a rest though.

1. Is bf nutritious enough for under 1's

Yes. I worried about this and was clearly told by a professional breast feeding counsellor that there was nothing to worry about. If you have a search on MN you will find plenty of posts saying that babies have eaten practically no solids until over 12 months. It is more common then you think. As long as your baby is gaining weight and is bright and active you do not need to worry.

1. What is a good book?

Sorry can't help here. Try just offering your baby things from your own plate as long as they are baby friendly and not too salty. I found DD liked to eat off my plate.

I might get jumped on for this but hey ho - I think you need to cut the night feeds down to stimulate his eating during the day of both milk and solids - could you try and stretch to three hour between feeds at night and then 4 etc? imo theres a difference between sleeping through which is rare and feeding every two hours which seems to me that hes swapped his days and nights over.

I think you should sort that out and then tackle the solids - once the milk is sorted then you can be confident that hes getting enough and less stressed about the weaning.

could you make the night feeds 6-7pm, 10-11pm (when you go to bed) 2-3am, then morning bf at 5-6am?

mmm yes will try to stretch the night feeds a bit.

feel v reassured with the advice about bm being enough for first year, and also good to know that this is normal for allergy babies.

i have a dh but he works nights so have to do this myself.

thanks mn

btw beachcomber what did your dc drink instead of bm at 18 months?

I was going to post a thread about my 9 month olds serious lack of interest in solids, so this is handy!

He has very little interest (except for custard!) I've tried finger foods he generally just squashes it up in his fingers. He won't drink juice or water. I haven't stressed about it too much and this thread has reassured me that it isn't too unusual.

DS has also been a frequent night feeder, which to be honest prety much took it's toll on us so a couple of weeks ago we made a firm decision to cut out night feeds. We'd tried lots of various sleep techniques in the past to no avail ( I think we were too tired to be consistent tbh)

Whenever he woke we used to go in, check his nappy, shush him, give him a stroke and then left the room. The first few nights I stayed by his cot but the first night he cried for 45 minutes the second night an hour and a half. So I tried just leaving the room. The next few nights he cried for five/ten minutes and then fell asleep. I'm not a fan of leaving to cry (or I would have done it months ago!) but tbh I think my presence just made it worse. Also even though he was crying he was lying with his head down and eyes closed, so he was clearly tired and wanted to go back to sleep but just used to using feeding as a sleep assosiation.

Anyway, we are at a stage now where he sleeps 7pm til 4.30am has a feed, then sleeps til 7am which is a huge improvement.

Hasn't made much of a difference to his appetites to solids though.

connor that sounds good, but i have tried leaving him to cry - he doesn't really cry he stands up in his cot shaking the bars and shouting til he bumps his head and screams.

how is he now he is sleeping better? is he happier?

Glad you are feeling a bit better Kalo.

I fed DD2 until she was just over two years old. We cut out night feeding at 18 months, I didn't offer her anything else at night time apart from water.

She can't have dairy or formula so I replaced these with rice milk or oat milk. Neither of these are very nutritious though, they are OK for cooking with or having the odd comfort bottle but they could never replace breast milk.

It must be very hard for you not having your DH around at nights. I became a complete mad women through lack of sleep and frustration. I would go and feed DD because it would get her back to sleep but sometimes I could hardly bear the feeling of her pulling and sucking at me for the tenth time that night.

I really feel for you, have been there and know how bloody horrible it is.

kalo - am not sure but if they're standing up then its more pick up/put down isnt it? I think there must be threads on this in the sleep section.

how does he go down for his nap at lunch btw? on his own or in the buggy or after a feed?

in the buggy for daytime naps.

i tried with rocking last night but gave in after an hour, then he was feeding all night again.

am moving house in three weeks so may try to hold out til then

do they ever just sleep longer without you doing anything?

Kalo, I feel so much for you. I have three girls, the first was an apalling eater, the second an apalling sleeper and this one is OK for both so far!
With the bad eater I had to learn to relax. If she ate, she ate, I stopped offering any kind of alternatives if she didn't eat (as sometime I made up to 4 or 5 meals in one sitting to see if she would eat something else). She had her favourites, mostly chopped tomatoes, baked beans, pieces of ham, pieces of salmon and pasta was sometimes OK and all fruit. Once I relaxed (which wasn't until she was about 18 months old) she improved vastly. She is now an excellent eater, eats everything, even down to oysters and mussels!!
With the bad sleeper we actually paid for a sleep clinic. I was feeding her to sleep and this got to an hourly stage which was dreadful. I then had to start a plan I could stick to. Don't cut out the feeds overnight, they just can't cope. Decide that you will feed, say, every 2 hours the first night and for, say, 8 minutes. The next night increase to, say, every 2.5 hours and for 7 minutes. The next night every, say, 3 hours and for 6 minutes, etc. It is hard and exhausting BUT it worked.
Funnily enough I am just doing it with number 3 as she was waking 4 or 5 times for a feed and I'm now on day 5 and she is waking twice a night and already I feel MUCH better in myself. Lack of sleep is terrible. When they wake before the 2 hours (or whatever stage you are at) they have to not be fed but I went in and soothed and hushed, etc. First two nights were difficult but from night 3 she went back to sleep after only about 5 minutes.
I do think it will make you feel much better to sort the sleep thing out first and then maybe the food thing won't 'stress' you so much, it really did stress me!
Good luck.

well tbh I think no but some must as they pop up on mn occasionally and I hiss at them...

mine didnt/havent anyway - the first one I had to do cc in the end and with this one we did pat/shh though to be fair she is a much more contented baby so it was easier.

we sorted out the daytime naps first - ie teaching them that putting them down in the cot means they should sleep and once we had sorted that then the nighttime was easier...we used a combination of dummy/white noise etc and then gradually took all those things away one by one until we were left with sleeping bag/saying the same calming words/musical mobile.

does any of this make sense?i am typing this whilst making a den so apologies if not.

your plan sounds good janus,
so if he wakes after 1 hour I soothe and sssh til another hour has gone by, then i feed for a set time 8 mins then i 'unlatch ' him, (he will cry here and get angry) so do i then sssh and sooothe for another two hours and then feed him?
i know i may seem pessimistic but i have tried things before and he's never fallen asleep so i just want to think worst case scenario

giantkate - how did you get them to sleep in their cots in day? cc?

i'm really going to try but i need my plan failsafe this time before i start

I just really watched and when it was getting towards 2 hours and eye rubbing had started I take her up to the room but yes it was it was just comforting her and stroking and hand holding - I never let her really wail though. does your dh working nights mean you cant be noisy in the house during the day - ie a bit of cc?

I would agree with Janus' plan - its much easier for both of you but once you start you have to stick with it and yes worst case is that he then goes mad when you unlatch - or you could make it two hours and feed as much as he wants but not let him fall asleep - you know the change in them when they're just sucking and not feeding..the basic thing is the decent gap between feeds in the night so that you can then stretch them out...it would be good to start whatever plan on the saturday as well and put whoever is better at not giving in on the first night as thats the worst obv.

my dh works all day and night - comes home at midnight starts at 6 am. and weekends. then has a day off in the week but he's so knackered. chef

right I am going to bed now and i'm going to think about my plan and get a bit of sleep in anticipation.

Should I wait til I move house or just start tomorrow?

Kalo, I would start with every two hours and a long feed, if the feed is normally 15 minutes start there and then the next night go for 14 minutes. I take a digital alarm clock around with me so I definitely know how long I have fed for. If he wakes as soon as unlatched, no matter how long you have fed for, then you will have to leave the room and return every, say, 5 minutes to comfort and walk out. Do not pick him up as he will then get addicted to being held/rocked to sleep.
Believe me, my second was horrendous and I was very sceptical of this plan when given by the sleep clinic. I had to completely 'psyche' myself up to start because the first couple days are bad (I was told this by the clinic). I actually went to my Mum and Dad's because they then took over the next day while I got some sleep. It really does not matter where you do it, once you do it they learn 'how to sleep' which they will then do anywhere. So, you could start now rather than when you move. Or, is it possible to go to your Mum's so she could then let you sleep the next day and you could really stick to the plan without worrying about waking your partner?
I will try and think if there's anything else but good luck if you do decide to start.

right, ok.

how old was your lo when you tried it btw, and how many days did it take?

I wouldn't personally try to go cold turkey on night feeds as your DS is clearly getting a lot of his calories at night. Its a shame your DP can't help, but I'd definitely go with whoever said to stretch out the time between night feeds, which will hopefully encourage him to eat more in the day.

If you have the energy, then only offer milk every X hours. When we started this with DS at 6 months we left him to cry (only took a few days to get a bedtime and down to 3-4 hours between feeds) as we were both too exhausted to do anything, then we switched to DH settling him between feed times. It will be hard work on your own though.

Re the solids, I found what helped us was to not allow BF for at least an hour before solids feed -he'd then have space for food. Also, try it not too long after he's woken so he's got plenty of energy to pay attention to the finger foods part of the meal.

Do you have someone else who can have your DS for a day. DS really twigged what food was about when I started going back to work. He hates bottles and figured out that solids filled him up - his solids intake upped after that.

A few practical notes about feeding. If he likes rice cakes, try smearing them with puree to make it easier for him to feed himself. Works great with yoghurt too. Also if he likes bread sticks, dip them in stuff.

Good Luck!

does baby have ezcema?
if yes, is it controlled?

was ezcema really bad as a young baby?

how is general weight gain?

how did you work out the allergies to dairy and gluten?

baby has mild ezcema
never really bad
weight gain is quite little 2 oz per week at mo but he does move alot.
he's on the 10th centile was on 50th before weaning.
vomits when given milk
ezcema when gluten and then goes off food. gluten is not conclusive but i have sensitivity to wheat / gluten so i thought i would cut it out for a bit too.

Lots of infants and children with food intolerances are poor sleepers, ( low weight gain is linked to that as well sometimes)
A leaky gut can take a long time to heal, mainly because it cant rest, as we need to eat!

Often when layed out flat in bed the gut stretches and causes pain. which is one reason why they dont sleep.

Normal babies learn to sleep for a longer time as the weeks go by, a healthy newborn will sleep 4-5 solid hours.
Then by 6 months most are sleeping longer.
Some allergic and intolerant infants have never been able to sleep for this long.
ezcema can cause poor sleep, as well as gut , and tummy pain.

My son was unable to sleep for long periods due to his allergies and eczema, he finally slept for the first time a solid 4 hour sleep at 9 months.
He was developing a sleep pattern at 9 months, like a newborn baby , and carried on like that until the magic night when he slept through.
It also coincided with the discovery and removal of his food allergies, and environmental triggers.

Sleep training was attempted , promted by health visitors, but was not a wise choice for him.
leaving a child to cry for even a short time when they have ezcema , only leads to a lot of blood, skin flare up, and wet cotton wool needed to soak away cot sheet from skin.

I wouldnt rule out the sleep training, as it worked for my normal healthy first born, but would consider carefully all the options you have.

I certainly would not jump to stopping breast feeding. It may be that your child has other food intolerances, but without a normal weight gain and sleep pattern, at least your child is protected against infection via your milk.
If he has a cows milk intolerance, there is no harm in breast feeding until 2 yrs or more.

introduce new foods one at a time, and if at first refused try again once the following week or so.
This isnt a race, he is still feeding and will eventually increase solids, he is on his own time scale.

He may also be picky about his food for very good reasons.
only time will tell.

does baby sleep for a short period during the day?, when he does, sit down. do nothing.
in fact , sit down at first flutter of eyelids, its your cue to rest.

if you dont have older children, lay down, get a nap.
push all rubbish under the sofa, it will keep for another day.
eat well yourself, dont miss meals.

good luck.