Love to know what mum's think of the Scottish Baby Box poem

[toomuchpink]

Love to know what mum's - especially those in Scotland - think of this poem. It is going into the Scottish Government's new baby box of freebies for parents of newborns.

Tempted to ask for alternative suggestions which truly capture the experience of having a baby. But perhaps for some people this is what it is like?

Jackie Kay
Welcome Wee One

O ma darlin wee one
At last you are here in the wurld
And wi’ aa your wisdom
Your een bricht as the stars,
You've filled this hoose with licht,
Yer trusty wee haun, your globe o' a heid,
My cherished yin, my hert's ain!

O my darlin wee one
The hale wurld welcomes ye:
The mune glowes; the hearth wairms.
Let your life hae luck, health, charm,
Ye are my bonny blessed bairn,
My small miraculous gift.
I never kent luve like this.

It's not resistance to diversity

It's themselves that have called Scots a minority language in Scotland. And at the same time, its themselves that have been adamant that the majority of people in Scotland live their lives through standard English. And yet they are still adamant that their call to suppress any state-sponsored expression of Scots, an indigenous and living, but threatened, language, is not resistance to diversity? Well, fuck me sideways, this thread was already nuts, but you've taken the biscuit now.

Scots isn't a 'threatened language' - it's something which has been concocted from a mish mash of dialects, which is why so few people speak the Scots that is presented as such as a language.

Milady's post is absolutely spot on. Scots is only one language spoken in Scotland - the SG's resistance to diversity is a resistance to the reality, which is that very few people speak Scots (in its entirety as they present it) whereas a majority of the population speak and understand english - but for whatever reason, they don't seem to want to acknowledge that (and other languages) because somehow, in their heads, that's not Scottish, and only thing that can be is their Scots.

Evening, wasn't sure if you were still on duty. Right then, in regard to your post, as a percentage, how much Scot-gov related output would you estimate was purely in Scots?

Wrt Scots as a language or not - or as a 'mish-mash'. There are four recognised variants of Scots, geographically distributed. Is this an issue? I hesitate to raise this paticular example with you, on past performance, but did you know that there are three extant and quite distinct dialects of Gaeilge in Ireland? Surely no-one would argue that Gaeilge wasn't a language just on that basis?

Lowland Scots is an informal dialect. For formal situations (outside of relationships with family and friends), the vast, vast majority of Scottish people have two-way communication in English, and certainly understand English, and definitely write in English.

Expanding the use of Lowland Scots outside of intimate circles is a fabrication, and when you have that, the driving force is political.

The other thing that gets me about this forced "Scots" is that it doesn't represent the various regions of Scotland, and that makes it even more artificial. Although I have always spoken English, I do recognise the local words in the area I grew up in (Edinburgh/East Lothian) and I can't stand being represented by west coast words, e.g. wean instead of bairn, lang instead of long.

This is all nouveau Highland Revival stuff.

Gaelic is a completely separate language. Lowland Scots is a dialect of English.

as a percentage, how much Scot-gov related output would you estimate was purely in Scots?

Irrelevant - we're discussing their decision to include a poem in Scots in the baby box. That was what my post was about, in case you're not clear (although I think you know exactly what I referred to).

As to 4 recognised variants - not exactly. You can read more on [[http://www.scotslanguage.com/pages/view/id/10 this website]]. However, again, that's not my point about the claim that the Scots which has been presented is threatened - it's simply not used widely because a)english is the main language, and b)there are dialects used across Scotland, as opposed to this single 'Scots'.

FFS this website

Well guys, highland revival is Gaelic, for a start.

Of course Gaeilge, the example I gave, is a separate language from English, it's in a separate language group. I was using it to illustrate the possibility of a language which is fragmented into quite distinct dialects. But re. Scots: how do languages and dialects become informal/formal? How do they become classed as dialects/languages? They become so politically. In fact, the distinction between a dialect and a language is political, and not linguistic. So, in arguing that Scots has not for some while been used in formal settings, and therefore belongs at home, all you are doing is affirming a situation where the people who speak Scots have lacked power, because power sets the language of power, obvs. And for a baby box, what tone do you choose? Is informal wrong?

As an aside, I notice that the NHS in Birmingham are giving out baby boxes. I spent my teenage years in North Staffordshire, and hope they take up the scheme. And certainly, although the Potteries' dialect is not as distinctive as it once was in day to day speech, I can imagine how much people would appreciate a proper Stokey poem in their box if they do get the scheme.

Poem is pish, but I can't stand anything written like that. I don't know what it's called, but where they spell the accent iyswim.
I'd have loved a box of goodies though myself as I was broke.

Ahh - so the use of 'Scots' in the baby box is a political statement?

What tone do you use? No tone - you use the language which is spoken, written and understand by the majority of people living in Scotland (that's english, btw).

You're so funny, implying that the use of one language must be political whereas the use of another would obviously not be. The current Makar writes in 2 languages, both of which belong to Scotland. Any use of any language in an official capacity 'promotes' that language. What if a Burns poem had been used, for example, would you have objected to that? Again, your guess as to the proportion of state output in Scots? Or Gaelic? In a wider context, in our cultural life, do you feel that English is under-represented, underfunded, neglected?

Re informal/formal

A Scottish wifie might declare to the the family that she is going doon the street to get her messages, but once she is actually in the greengrocer, she will ask for her produce in English. It will be potatoes rather than tattles, even though both parties understand both words.

She will converse with her children's teacher (bairns' dominie?) in English. Likewise her bank manager, and also her boss.

With her family, she may use the vernacular in speech, but her Christmas cards will be in English.

Makar? I had to google that one. They didn't have it when I was growing up in Scotland. We had the Bard (the mighty Robert Burns) and the Poet Laureate. We even had a "poet in residence" at school - but nothing as pretentious as a Makar.

You're funny too yellow. I'm taking that as a 'yes' to my first question, and a 'I'll ignore the second point because that's just too much like common sense'.

BizzyFizzy, this is quite true anywhere you go, and a result of an imposed standard of speech. However, in the 21st century the old bigoted attitudes are diminishing, and people find that they can speak in their authentic 'home' voice even on the BBC.

What twat.

English is not imposed. What a crazy notion. We use it because it helps us to communicate unhindered. This is a good thing. I am sure the Polish mums who receive Wee Nippy's boxes must be scratching their heads and looking for translations.

It is a world language that millions (billions?) of people would give their eye-teeth to be fluent/conversant in. It is amazingly versatile and concise, and quite happy to poach from other languages.

Anyone who shuns it needs therapy or realignment of political ideals.

SirChenjin, you're a fine one to talk about not answering questions, but never mind.

BizzyFizzy, the position of Poet Laureate doesn't strike you as pretentious but that of the Makar does? What's the difference?

I don't mind - please be very assured of that.

Poet Laureate was a continuously used and established term. Makar was resurrected by cultural archaeologists out of complete obscurity.

Poet Laureate goes back to the 1600s, I didn't know about Makar but wiki did, it's an ancient term for poet and
"Since 2002, the term "makar" has been revived as the name for a publicly funded poet, first in Edinburgh, followed by Glasgow, Stirling and Dundee, and in 2004 the position of The Scots Makar, in the sense of a Scottish poet laureate, was introduced by the Scottish Parliament"

So basically it's a Scottish version of the PL

See this is exactly what I object to: people insisting that anyone who rejects an utterly political project to position 'pandialectical Scots' (i.e. a jumble of dialects in which the words shared with English are spelled wrong for no other reason than to obscure the similarity to English) as The True Language of Scotland is in fact a hideous bigot.

Maybe the SNP would be more successful in persuading the Scottish people they want an independent Scotland if they were less determined to exclude millions of Scottish people from their definition of Scottish.

No one on here is embarrassed about being Scottish because being Scottish encompasses much more than a bloody stereotype.

Well, Bizzyfizzy, no-one can accuse you of being ungrateful for what you've been given, anyway. Stick with the status quo by all means, if it still exists, but maybe no need to call people twats if they would prefer something different.

Bejazzled: clearly the term poet laureate won't do because it doesn't jump up and shout 'look! We're totally different to you' even though it describes exactly the same bloody thing.

We're Scottish and in the 21st century, Scotland needs to pretend it has absolutely no shared culture with the rest of the uk.

Milady, there are a variety of opinions on the status of Scots as a dialect or a language, although it is recognised by the UK government as a language. But, as I said, the language/dialect distinction is a political construct anyhow, so we will get nowhere arguing that one I think.

But by taking such massive exception to this one prominent and public use of Scots, methinks the lady doth protest too much. Against the backdrop of a history of the most blatant political imposition of standard English across the UK, to the detriment of both dialects and other languages alike, you choose to object to this single poem offered in the other direction. Honestly, this baffles me. And yes, it is intolerant.