So what do we think of CDJ’s sanctions and statement ?

[Withoutorwithin77]

On a personal level I wish her every happiness with her pregnancy and new baby due in February.

On a professional level:

~I think the length of suspension is probably about right seeing as her career is already destroyed and she has suffered a terrible pile on.

~BUT I think her statement was rather cursory and didn’t convey enough acknowledgement of her wrongdoing.

And she failed to mention the massive negative effect that her actions have had on ordinary riders, not necessarily dressage riders, who try and do the right thing, and on equestrian sport as a whole. I’m a bit angry about it tbh.

I’d be interested in knowing what others think? I am just finishing work and haven’t read any statements by BD either.

Nvm

She should have had a lifetime ban

Does that mean never mind?

I’m not sure how I feel about it.

It kind of allows her to come back doesn’t it which I don’t think is right because I don’t think it came across as a one off incident tbh.

I think she personally has been punished enough but I don’t think dressage overall comes out of it at all well.

I think there should have been a thorough investigation at all levels of the sport and I reckon that hasn’t happened because it would have discovered too many “grey” areas or worse.

I agree that dressage for us as a community is separate but for many all horse riding in general has been damaged by this and the statement is much more about how bad it has been personally. I think announcing the pregnancy at the same time was a bit unnecessary. Don't want to be malicious but that behaviour has let us all down and it did look like something she was very used to doing, that it was in a lesson with a minor is a really serious element of it. Lots of people ready to excuse this behaviour as a witch hunt etc but that is not the case, its a professional body investigation. Overall when the social licence for riding even is at times itself in question and so many people have no understanding of what we do - people have not been as far from horses generally as they are now in centuries - having our most famous rider being banned on welfare grounds makes us all look bad. The statement should have been less about her personal life and more of an attempt to repair the damage she has done to the public perception of all horse riding.

I absolutely agree with everything you have said in this post CountryCob; you’ve expressed it much better than I did. And yes, I think the statement should definitely been less about her personally and more about the wider damage done to equestrianism as a whole. I don’t think she has taken enough responsibility for that imho.

It depends how you feel about animal cruelty and maintaining professional standards.

I think the ban is proportionate. I wish they would issue financial penalties that might actually affect people like CDJ though. Bigger penalties would be a better deterrent.

On her statement, it almost certainly wasn't meant that way, but it does seem to be a bit of a "fuck you" to say "I'm having a baby so I effectively get suspended at a very convenient time for me". But perhaps that's me being excessively cynical.

Yes I feel rather the same way.

I also naively thought that the whole debacle would be the catalyst for a thorough review of the sport at every level.

And that there would be more communication from British Dressage and the FEI. I think it’s a disappointing response and rather confirms what I thought, that many competitors are implicated to some degree?

Having said that, I only compete at a very, very basic local level, so maybe improvements are being made that I am not aware of?

I think BD etc have a limited reach. How do they police what happens on yards all over the UK/World? To a degree I hope when CDJ comes back she fails to get the rides and sponsorship again, which would be more off a deterrent to others. But that is a bit mean spirited of me.

Yes I understand and agree that BD have limited resources.

Personally though I would have thought that if the sport of dressage is to survive with grass roots support and support from the public, which as a horse-owner I very much hope it does, I really think that there needs to be more transparency and open debate and why not a team doing spot checking on yards at every level?

Obviously members would have to sign up to be inspected, but it could be made dependent on entering affiliated shows or whatever? Don’t come at me on this please, I only compete at the most basic village show level on a hairy leg-on-each-corner type, so I don’t claim to be an expert, and I haven’t thought this through properly yet, I’m just summarising initial thoughts.

I am worried about the issue and care a lot about it though, because I think what CJD did and how BD Dressage and the FEI have responded to it, reflects poorly on all ordinary horse-loving equestrians in the eyes of the public, who are becoming less and less tolerant of equestrian ownership and sports in general. It’s been a disaster in fact, as Charlotte and her “dancing” horse were one of the few international dressage competitors who were familiar to ordinary non-horsey viewers.

Atm, unless I have missed something, it seems that someone has made a policy decision to address the CJD debacle and all of the discussion that it promoted, by acknowledging it, in a limited way and applying sanctions to her, and by not encouraging the wider debate about cruelty in the sport that the incident provoked, when we have all seen i with our own eyes situations where top riders have fallen short.

At this point I think the tireless work of huge numbers of ordinary dressage riders should be acknowledged, who put their horses welfare, first and foremost, 24/7, 365 days of the year. There are huge numbers of horse lovers whose participation in the sport of dressage have made them more balanced, lighter, more respectful and more knowledgeable riders, which can only be a good thing for their mounts. So if you don’t know about horses and are reading this, please do t assume that we are all competition obsessed monsters!

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I’ve just looked at the home page on the BD web site just now and there is a statement about CDJ’s suspension in which they mention the Charter of the Horse.

There is also a section dedicated to Horse Welfare which is detailed and impressive.

https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/about-us/equine-welfare/

Deeper in the website is an article from 18 March 2024 about the Charter of the Horse endorsed by none other than Carl Hester:

https://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news/charter-for-the-horse-a-unified-approach-to-safeguarding-our-equines-and-equids

Also on the Home Page are two videos: one of Alan Davies on grooming and a q & a session with Carl Hester.

To be clear, I am NOT accusing the latter of poor treatment of horses. I have always been a fan tbh as I was of Charlotte.

But I am slightly uncomfortable with how closely the top echelons of the sport shall we say, are entwined with BD, and how problematic that makes objective assessment.

And I think wider questions need to be asked of the FEI who govern the sport. It is alleged that they are fairly litigious and allegedly quash rival bodies. It is also alleged that they govern equine sports in their interests and in the interests of the horse. But I think there needs to be an objective outside body checking whether and where those two interests do, and do not, align?

Ànd as far as I know, there’s been no “official” reflection, on how CJD’s abuse came about despite the Charter of the Horse and despite BD’s equine welfare policy.

And no one is publically asking or responding to the question, if one of our most famous and decorated dressage riders has breached standards, and indeed someone who promoted horse welfare in dressage, then is this behaviour endemic in the sport?

Do we know if this question was investigated by BD and if so, how? Have they collected witness testimonials from others working in the yard or from other pupils of CJD? Have other top riders been investigated.

Edited to add: I know that BD does have a whistleblower line which is a great start!

To me it didn’t look like an isolated incident as CJD’s demeanour at the time appeared to be calm and she had her emotions in check, she didn’t appear to be exasperated or frustrated, yet it is being treated as a one off.

Honestly, the whole debacle reminds me of Greg Wallace and the BBC. I am a true supporter of the Beeb but there does seem to be an endemic problem within the organisation and the world of entertainment in general, of how the “the talent” are allowed to treat younger less powerful co-workers. In Greg’s case female co-workers. And yet the Beeb’s response is to admonish the “cheeky chappy” when it appears they knew about his behaviour for years.

Sorry for the essay but all of this worries me a lot and there seems to be still so many questions as yet unanswered and it makes me wonder, why?

Another additional edit:
At the same time, I don’t want to condemn BD and all of its members and throw every top dressage rider under the bus. There are some great improvements in horse welfare being made. I just think that their response should have been a bit louder, more transparent and more far-reaching.

I agree, for us we see dressage as a separate issue but for many it is lumped together with injured racehorses and hunting etc etc and we start to be criticised a lot and very misunderstood. I don't think some pro riders take enough responsibility to be role models we need them to be. Success in competition itself appears to often be allowed contradict welfare concerns. This is evident even at the lowest levels when prelim rosettes go to the rider most pulling this horse's head in to bend their neck whilst kicking, when realistically straightness and accuracy would be more relevant and there is no way those horses are in self carriage.

BD is so behind the times, and don't get me started on the FEI.
BD is 1 of only a few areas where horses can't be barefoot. BS now allows it as an example although they don't ban the horrendous gadgets and bits that are frequently used.
The governing bodies are slow to react and want to preserve "tradition" above everything else.
Sadly, abuse has always gone on. We need education and positive role models aho aren't afraid to put their heads above the parapet. We need to empower ring stewards at all levels to call out abuse in warm up arenas and lorry parks.
We need to not rush kids out of riding schools before they have a solid understanding of horse management and welfare.
The issues start at grassroots and go all the way to the very top. Massive rise in leg fractures this summer because people were running their horses XC on rock solid ground. Livery yards offering individual paddocks, or no winter turnout.
The list is endless and you can't pin all of that on 1 person ie CDJ.

True, I like this Esme as a role model for my DD as a young rider, she is about the only one I can think of outside of good local grooms and PC. Only positive influencer, that and Porridge the dressage pony. There probably are morw but lots seem to be just showing off latest lorry etc/ trying to sell too much and not really with the horse at the heart of things. Hopefully Pippa Funnel is as lovely as she seems with her horses or my faith is truly destroyed. I will add her to the list as have read her books with my daughter and the way they consider a horse's perspective is nice. I watched her and William Funnel's demo in how to produce young horses at Burghley and thought that was nice, not that I need to learn how to train a 5* event horse but some lovely comments on general training and what a horse needs

Btw I am genuinely interested that you think CJD’s punishment may path the way for her return because those were my thoughts too.

Always loved Pippa! 😀

Yes I think the whole of equestrianism is going through a huge transition right now, and the ruling bodies are very much behind the curve as you say.

And yes, and it’s blindingly obvious that far too many practices are being carried out and promoted, which contradict what we know know from behavioural science, go against the best interests of the horse.

But it isn't just a behavioural science issue. There is a massive amount of sheer ignorance on one hand, and on the other a pot hunting at all costs mentality.
Just picking on 1 high profile person does nothing to improve the situation. All that happens is that these things move behind closed doors and trainers/competition venues start banning the use of filming.
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So true. Marking in dressage competitions at all levels end seems to be far too arbitrary and often rewards poor riding. To be be fair there has at least been discussion about this issue but it needs to be improved urgently. Not easy when so much of the sport at the lower level is run on a shoe string with volunteers. But what is the excuse at the top competitions from which so many riders take their cues?

And agree that there has been an eery silence among top dressage competitors which is strange and worrying. What are they all afraid of? Public opinion? Their governing bodies? What does this silence mean?

People want quick results + rosettes so instead of putting in the YEARS of work with a young horse following scales of training, they chuck it in draw reins (even if back end is trailing into Australia) and enter Prelim tests. They get rewarded so move up the levels. Horse reaches 9 and suddenly starts having hock + back issues. So owner gets hocks injected or kissing spine operations. Then horse has a short rehab and is returned to competition. Finally breaks down around 16 so shunted out as a schoolmaster.

Many people don't understand correct way to build foundations, strength + longevity or that horses need holidays just like we do. I have ex-racers and so many novice owners buy them out of raving without knowing that they have to go back to absolute basics ie treat them like a 3 Yr old.

I honestly believe that there should be HorseOwners certificates of competence that people have to pass before owning (same a driving licence) and then higher level ones if wanting to compete etc.

Yes I didn’t mean to contradict you! I agree with what you are saying.

In some ways the more money that has come in to the sport, the further we get away from what horses need most; the three Fs.

And some of us who are older had parents who actually used horses as transport post 2nd world war and their parents and grandparents remembered horses being part of everyday life.

The further away we get from those days, the fewer common sense skills and knowledge are passed down.

At the same time, behavioural science has informed new more positive ways of training.

I totally agree that the approach needs to be broader and more thorough, and not solely focused on one person.

At the same time, I don’t think it’s totally an “and or or” situation as that person has found herself to be at the centre of a whirlwind in all of this and as such her response was important. I don’t know who wrote it, or how circumspect she was advised to be, but to focus mainly on her pregnancy, delightful though that is for her and her dh, seemed to be missing the point.

That’s an excellent idea.

I believe they have a similar licence system for dog ownership in Germany.

The BHS courses and Pony Club levels are excellent, I learnt as an apprentice bhs student working on a yard and still have my notes

Yes this is more my level and agree good things are happening at the roots of the sport.

Horses can absolutely be barefoot for dressage, they just can’t wear hoof boots which is a separate issue.

Unless you work in one of the governing bodies, I don’t think it’s fair to say they are behind the times or only want to preserve tradition. This is not the case at all, but there is an unbelievable amount of work that has to be done before changes can be made across the board, and most riders or people in the industry are completely oblivious of this and think that their great ideas on social media can be actioned in five minutes. And it’s not feasible to keep members updated at every minute stage.

To the OP - there is a HUGE amount going on behind the scenes across the disciplines that you don’t see. Sometimes because it’s not appropriate to share with the public and sometimes because more work is yet to be done. Also as you are not a BD member (?) you won’t get their communications so are likely to be a bit more “out of the loop” as it were.

BD do not have the jurisdiction to inspect yards, and even if they did, there are not the resources. Licensing of yards (as there are in racing) has been discussed by the powers that be, but it’s an impossible mission particularly with the fragmented nature of most equestrian disciplines and even more so those that have an unaffiliated scene.

There is so much being done that is really positive for the future. The worst thing that horse people do at the moment is bicker amongst themselves and pit the disciplines against each other. We need to be a united front to present ourselves as best we can to the public.