Pony being naughty all of a sudden!

[Capybura]

We have a 12.1hh 21 year old loan pony which came to us about 3 months ago. To start with, she was pretty perfect, but in the last few weeks she has ditched my 8 year old DD 3 times - every time she was cantering around and the pony dropped a shoulder and did a sudden sharp spin to the side.

The vet and chiropractor have seen her and said they can find nothing wrong. We changed her saddle when she first came but it was fitted by a saddler and no problems for the first couple of months - just in case, we changed back to her old saddle last weekend but she did it again! So I don't think it is that (although we have a new saddler coming this week to check).

I now think she is just being naughty - her owners said she did something similar at her loan home about 10 years ago with a fairly weak rider but has been good as gold since (as verified by her most recent loan homes).

The only other things that have changed recently are that she's now shod on all fours (although has been shod in previous homes) and we switched from night-time to day-time turnout about a month ago.

My plan is to get my daughter (who is fairly competent for her age) to ride her a bit more bossily, with a shorter rein, more defensive seat, etc., and take things right down a level (no cantering for a while), and I am giving her a quick 20 minute schooling session myself a couple of times a week. I'm planning to have my hat with me next time DD rides and if she does it again then get on and give her a good telling off and make her canter around and around until she is tired, so she hopefully learns bad consequence happen when she does it (I haven't told her off yet as I was worried it might be pain).

Does anyone have any other ideas?! Or encouraging stories of how they fixed their pony's bad behaviour? I really don't want to give this pony up as when she isn't doing it she really is a fantastic little pony but my daughter is fairly nervous and although she's got back on every time she's fallen off so far, I can see a point coming where she will just lose all her confidence.

She’s 21 years old so there’s a whole host of things to rule out besides the usual obvious before you conclude that she’s simply being naughty. She’s only been with you 3 months. You are still very much in the early days of figuring out her personality, and her figuring out you.

1. Saddle check
2. Teeth check
3. Bridle/bit fitting
4. Vet re-check especially for low level lameness
5. You’ve changed from night-time turn out to daytime so she will be eating more grass = more sugar = more energy and higher potential for laminitis consider switching back
6. You say she’s now shod all round - again this may create a change in behaviour speak to farrier

Those are the very basics before you start “assertively” riding this old girl.

I agree with @unrsnblyannoyd - horses/ponies displaying ‘naughty’ behaviour are usually in pain somewhere - they’re not naughty just for the hell of it especially if this is a new behaviour. The other thing I’d be wary of is getting on her yourself, telling her off and riding her into the ground to teach her a lesson … unless you’re absolutely tiny as an adult you will almost certainly be way too tall/heavy for her so you could be compounding the problem

Thanks @unrsnblyannoyd - She saw the dentist in August and he said no issues, and as I say the saddler is coming out this week. Same bridle and bit as she has always been ridden in. Vet checked her last week and said 100% sound.

She's getting less grass as now out for 8 hours a day (rather than 16 hours a day, as is the case in the winter). I don't think low-level laminitis would show in this way anyway - it would be more of a reluctance to move, not this spinning and cantering off. I'm super careful about laminitis and she gets limited grazing (I strip graze) - in fact, I was wondering whether she might be doing this as she is a bit hungry / wanting more grass - each time she has cantered off to the nearest patch of grass and stuck her head down. I wanted her to lose weight as she was overweight and had fat pads when she came and her insulin levels (which I had tested) were on the high side (46) - but maybe she is getting annoyed at the lack of grass, and having to eat her hay overnight out of a nibbleaze net (to slow her down). I should have said - another thing I am going to try is to give her a good lot of loose hay before we ride her so that I know she's not thinking of her stomach.

I will speak to the farrier and maybe take her shoes off again, although it would be a shame as she is comfier over stony ground in shoes.

I think she does need telling off - if she gets away with it too many more times it could become a very hard habit to break.

@Pleasedontdothat I'm 8.5 stone and I ride her in a bareback pad for 20 mins max. Pretty sure I am under 20% of her body weight. I would rather not ride her but she needs a firm hand and I wouldn't put anyone else's child on her as I am too worried about liability (being a lawyer!).

Could be hocks if she's panicking when going into canter.

Give her a handful of chaff before riding, not hay. It will line her tummy better.

Hock pain, back pain, neck pain, ulcers (inc hind)
Child losing balance? Pulling on mouth?

I'm planning to have my hat with me next time DD rides and if she does it again then get on and give her a good telling off and make her canter around and around until she is tired, so she hopefully learns bad consequence happen when she does it (I haven't told her off yet as I was worried it might be pain)
This is the reason I’ve never loaned anything out because you haven’t a clue what is being done to your animal and this is frankly disgusting behaviour .

@Thommasina I don't think hocks - vet has checked her and she shows no signs of arthritis. It's also not going into canter - it's when she's been cantering for a bit already. And last time she was actually in trot when she did it.

Research shows that horses eat less during the overnight so although she's out for fewer hours, she is likely to be eating more. Running off is a classic pain sign OP. You asked for advice, you've been given it, and so far your replies all indicate an, "I've tried this so it can't be that." The advice from me still stands and I'm sure from others too, if you want it then it's there if you want permission or agreement to push a pony through when she's telling you there's something wrong you won't find it here.

@Floralnomad Why is disgusting for a lightweight adult to get on a pony and sort it out when it is behaving badly? I discussed with the owner that this is what I would do - they are happy and they were the ones who said she is trying it on. If you let a pony get away with this kind of behaviour you are doing them no favours - they become dangerous for children to ride. If a pony or horse does something evasive and you have ruled out pain/fear (which I have) you need to get on and make it do the thing it was evading over and over until it learns not to bother. That's just basic horsemanship.

@unrsnblyannoyd But I have had the vet and chiropractor and she's now back in the saddle she was in when she came, and just to triple check I am getting the saddler out this week! What else do you want me to rule out? Are you saying no pony is ever just naughty/trying it on, and that it's always pain? I frankly do not agree with that, nor does her owner and nor does our instructor (or anyone else I know who knows anything about ponies).

I will do a bute trial as well (I forgot to say that in my post) - but frankly a very likely explanation at this point is that she is being naughty.

If it's early changes to hocks then she won't show any signs at all. When she's due to be shod ask the farrier what she thinks and to check the wear on her back shoes.

I mean she could just be naughty and bored.

@TequilaNights Thank you - we haven't scoped for ulcers and I did suggest it to the vet but she said very unlikely - if ulcers she would likely be girthy, etc. and she isn't.

Back pain, neck pain and hock pain all ruled out.

DD is pretty balanced and doesn't pull on her mouth at all.

She could be bored, she might suspect your dd is an easy mark. She's a mare, so trying to break her won't work.

I must say I do agree that ponies can be naughty but your attitude does rather put me off loaning any of mine out.

@Thommasina Thank you I will do that. I think I will have her shoes off too (at least her hinds), trying to rule out as many things as possible.

@Thommasina I think we are an excellent loan home. We have had her 3 months and I have spent thousands and thousands already on vet, physio, chiro, saddler, dentist, blood test (because I didn't like the look of her fat pads), new saddle (because the old one didn't fit brilliantly), 3 sets of hoof boots (because she wasn't comfortable on stony ground but I wanted to monitor for a couple of months before shoeing, so that it didn't mask any sub-clinical laminitis), etc., etc. I watch everything about her like a hawk. NO expense is spared and I am so careful with her. This is not our first loan pony and our previous loaner would give us a glowing reference.

I am the biggest animal lover out there and a vegan to boot - to be accused of any kind of animal cruelty is a bit galling to be honest! I'm not sure why people seem to be point-blank refusing to believe that a pony might possibly be chucking my DD because she is naughty. She jolly well doesn't try it with me.

OK, well your dd will just have to work it out for herself. It will improve her riding if she can work through it. Mine always expected to get chucked off at some point.

It’s disgusting because you said ‘I’m going to give her a good telling off and then canter her round and round until she is tired . This is a pony that you have said is 21 and came to you overweight so probably not particularly fit . I’d be less appalled if you said I’m going to get on and give her a good canter but you said shes going to get a good telling off and the cantering , I dread to think what the telling off involves . I’ve been a horse owner for 40+ years and I’ve never resorted to this sort of language despite owning some very contrary animals . Like dogs ( and probably most animals ) horses are best trained using positive methods IMO .

Couldn't agree more Floralnomad. I'd be scooping for ulcers and testing for EMS

Well @Justmemyselfandi999 , as I said above, the vet disagrees with you about ulcers (I specifically asked about it and would have been more than happy to pay for it if she said it was worth checking and she said no, it will not be that). And by the way that pony never goes a minute without access to forage except when ridden - I am militant about that.

EMS - I said above that the vet says she is 100% sound and that I had her insulin tested in August and that it was 46 - below the 50 for EMS diagnosis and she's lost weight and reduced fat pads since then, and has been on low sugar/starch Timothy hay (soaked at the slightest sign of a raised pulse) and limited grazing. There's not much I don't know about EMS, having had an EMS pony for I don't know how many years (who never did anything like this by the way).

@Floralnomad Ponies need telling off when they are naughty - end of. It is bloody dangerous for a pony to be chucking a child at high speed. This pony has a home for life with its owners but many ponies which end up dangerous to ride end up getting shot or worse. It does them no favours not to correct them. I'm not sure what you are envisaging - but my idea of a telling off is a firm leg (backed up by a couple of sharp smacks with a crop behind my leg if needed) and a bit of a growl telling them to get on and canter them around until they are tired.

@Capybura I know all about cantankerous cheeky ponies , we don’t sell on so still own a 31 yr old pony that was my sons when he was 6 ( so was she) . I’ve owned all kinds and types from ex racehorse to Dartmoor x and dealt with numerous behaviours , I’ve never used a crop ‘to teach a lesson’ so we will just have to disagree on horse training methods .

The fact that she doesn't do it with you is probably because you are riding her more forwards. Once you dd learns to sit to it she'll possibly stop doing it unless it's pain related.

Also - just really double check the saddle isn't slipping forward.