Pony being naughty all of a sudden!

[Capybura]

We have a 12.1hh 21 year old loan pony which came to us about 3 months ago. To start with, she was pretty perfect, but in the last few weeks she has ditched my 8 year old DD 3 times - every time she was cantering around and the pony dropped a shoulder and did a sudden sharp spin to the side.

The vet and chiropractor have seen her and said they can find nothing wrong. We changed her saddle when she first came but it was fitted by a saddler and no problems for the first couple of months - just in case, we changed back to her old saddle last weekend but she did it again! So I don't think it is that (although we have a new saddler coming this week to check).

I now think she is just being naughty - her owners said she did something similar at her loan home about 10 years ago with a fairly weak rider but has been good as gold since (as verified by her most recent loan homes).

The only other things that have changed recently are that she's now shod on all fours (although has been shod in previous homes) and we switched from night-time to day-time turnout about a month ago.

My plan is to get my daughter (who is fairly competent for her age) to ride her a bit more bossily, with a shorter rein, more defensive seat, etc., and take things right down a level (no cantering for a while), and I am giving her a quick 20 minute schooling session myself a couple of times a week. I'm planning to have my hat with me next time DD rides and if she does it again then get on and give her a good telling off and make her canter around and around until she is tired, so she hopefully learns bad consequence happen when she does it (I haven't told her off yet as I was worried it might be pain).

Does anyone have any other ideas?! Or encouraging stories of how they fixed their pony's bad behaviour? I really don't want to give this pony up as when she isn't doing it she really is a fantastic little pony but my daughter is fairly nervous and although she's got back on every time she's fallen off so far, I can see a point coming where she will just lose all her confidence.

As those little ponies can be buggers to girth and fit even though the saddle has been checked

Why don’t you do a pain killer trial? 2 weeks of meds to see if she improves?

And - if your dd doesn't have a very strong core- she's quite likely to lean forward the more the lesson or session goes on - worth really looking hard at - video her until she does it again and I bet your dd is leaning forward

@Thommasina Yes my first thought was saddle, which was why I was so confused when she did it again in her old saddle which she had for a couple of years before us. New saddler coming this week to double check though.

@Todaypicard Yes, I am going to do a Bute trial just in case, thanks.

You have to sit back with one of mine because if your weight goes forward he thinks the saddle will pinch him. Does she have a big shoulder?

@Thommasina Thank you - the first time my daughter did it she was sitting in the forward seat, so that's interesting you say that. It was my thought too - maybe saddle too narrow at front over her shoulders, exacerbated by my daughter's weight being over her withers - but then she did it in her old saddle when I put her back in that. Anyway, we will see what the new saddler says.

She may have got a pinch and then remembered. Good luck with it.

@Thommasina Yes it could be that - thank you, that's helpful. I am going to get DD to really make sure she sitting back.

She's changed to out during day which means her time out has lessoned. Is she ridden from the stable or field? She is probably feeling fresh and testing your DD out tbh.

I swear by the VIP pads for under saddle. Expensive and not sure if they come in a pony size but they are brilliant. They don't change fit. Definitely NOT the gel pads, they can pull the hair.

Can a more experienced child ride the pony and school it for you? Or can you school if you're light enough and a capable rider?

I tried the telling-off-cantering routine on my cheeky pony many moons ago.
It did not work.
We were both knackered.

I never found a good way to sort him out. Only a more experienced rider than me and daisy rains to stop the head going down as a precursor to bucking worked on him.

You've done a very thorough job in trying to locate a physical source of the problem, kudos for that.

You do get cheeky clever ponies that work out that once a small jockey is deposited a return to the stable or field and a bucket follows shortly afterwards. Wee buggers.

Unless you have had a specialist lameness vet assess this pony you have not ruled out hock lameness. Lots of ponies this age are lame enough on both hind legs to look sound. It is only with nerve blocks on one leg at a time that it shows up. If you say what area of the uk you live in ie north east people here may be able to recommend someone. Equally there are many other pain issues that could be new that have not been ruled out. Examples are kissing spine, ulcers and very early laminitis. Are you checking the digital pulse when she comes in from grazing? As pp says grass sugars are much higher in the day.
Another issue is that you have had her a short time and changed lots. She was barefoot, then in boots, then shod and you are talking about pulling the shoes. It isn’t ideal to keep changing things like this. Each change needs time to settle.
With the saddle again you have swapped this and thinking of swapping back to see if it helps. What you need is a saddle fitter you trust so you get a saddle which fits and is regularly checked and adjusted as needed. Any pony in a new home will likely change shape so should be checked very regularly initially, I would think ideally monthly while they settle in.
Does your daughter have regular lessons as it is very useful to have a trusted local instructor who can then recommend saddlers, specialist vets, farriers, physio etc?
You came on here to ask for help, which shows you care and want to help this pony. Please don’t be offended when people post advice, even if it is not what you hoped to hear.

You’re as defensive as that horrible woman that was all over the news for belting her pony because ‘it’ was being naughty.

You do not sound like an animal lover at all.

I've been fed that 'pony is 100% sound, no pain, must be a behavioural issue' line several times from vets (good, experienced ones too), and in every case we have found some significant medical/pain problem at some point, sometimes it took time to become more obvious to the vets (fairly crude, let's face it) tests, sometimes it took expensive diagnostics, but I'm now really skeptical of any vet writing off symptoms as just the pony being naughty. These were young ponies too, it really doesn't make sense to me that your vet would be so confident there's nothing whatsoever going on with your 21 year old, the vast majority of ponies that age will have some aches and pains or stiffness somewhere...

But if you do want to press ahead with behavioural/training solution, I do take issue with the plan to canter the pony round and round til tired as a punishment. I just don't think that will work, the pony isn't going to make the cognitive ink between napping and dumping their rider 10 mins ago and what they're being asked to do now and understand that one is happening because they did the other. The worst thing you can do with a nappy pony is tire them out, that just asks for more napping and all she's going to learn is that when she does canter forward she gets made to do more and more, gets tired, possibly it hurts (sorry!) and/or she just feels knackered and fed up, so in her mind going forward = bad, so she needs to do more extreme napping in order to be allowed to stop. By all means keep a good contact and ride her forward off your leg, but I'd be personally doing lots of very short bursts and transitions both within and up and down all the pace, insisting on her staying in front of the aid (and rewarding her with praise and removal of pressure when she does). Your aim would be that you 'catch' her before she drops off the leg of her own accord and thinks about napping (because she's tired, lazy, distracted, unbalanced, whatever) and quickly do a downwards transition on your terms, then praise, recover and send forwards again - you can also use small jumps, poles, obstacles, whatever keeps her interest really. Stop as soon as she starts to tire and build her fitness up gradually, always end on a good note.

But please please do make sure she isn't in pain before you press on with a schooling plan. Of course badly behaved ponies make bad rides for kids, but even more so do ponies in pain or even ones anticipating pain who've been taught by a very firm and unsympathetic rider that their signals that something isn't right get ignored or even cause them to be punished - down that road lies gradually more and more extreme and unpredictable reactions.

Thanks everyone - food for thought. My next steps are:

• saddler coming this week - and ask about whether she would recommend some kind of saddle pad
• make sure DD is not leaning forwards when she's riding and that she is riding forward into a contact
• make sure pony isn't hungry when ridden
• do a bute trial
• I'll also speak to my vet again about whether there could be a hock issue that wasn't picked up

I won't assume naughtiness just yet. I would be mortified if I told her off and she was actually trying to tell me that she was in pain.

Brilliant do keep us posted, we’ve all been in your position trying to piece together the equine puzzle. Do also consider a specialist lameness vet and regular lessons for your daughter. No one ever tells you what a cheap hobby horse riding is 🤣

In my experience ponies/horses don't just suddenly become naughty.
There is always a reason, you just have to find it.
What tests has your vet done? Has the pony had x rays etc, scans of suspensories?
With regards to ulcers my horse showed literally no signs of ulcers other than suddenly becoming spooky. No girthiness, loss of weight, reduced appetite etc. nothing except spooking, lives out 24/7. I asked for scoping turned out she had grade 5 ulcers. Worst the vet had seen in ages he said.
I would bet money your pony had something medical going on.

Beasting a 21yo pony. Nice. Have you tried punching her too or whipping her legs?

Typical horse person 🙄 the rest of us are in 2024, feel free to join us.

Oh and if an adult got on a pony I'd loaned out (an older pony at that) and cantered them round and round until they were tired to tell them off I'd get the pony straight back off them.

And she probably doesn't do it with you because a stronger rider can mask issues and push them through them. Not because the issue isn't there in the first place.
I'd really recommend a full work up including x rays from a specialist vet.

Naughty behaviour does need addressing sharply and I'm the first to suggest a robust schooling session but you don't know she is being naughty. Have her teeth been checked and floated? There are a million things it could be. I'd definitely start her on ulcerkind food before every ride and see if that helps.

The shying sideways and spinning sounds more like a spook to me. Does she always do it in the same place?

Have you tried recording your daughters rides and slowing it down to see exactly what she is reacting to?

A lot of horses get a bit looky and spooky this time of year when it's windy and raining and getting dark earlier and there's no point telling her off for spooking.

Did you ever get to the bottom of it @Capybura?
Hopefully it was just the autumn spookies in a new home...

It would be really interesting to see what happened in the end. Hope all is well.