Has there been a thread about natural horsemanship, liberty etc v more traditional training methods?

[Streptocarpus982]

I just wondered where everyone is ‘at’ with this atm? I’d welcome some honest opinions please. I know Parelli in particular wasn’t popular on here about 10 years ago but horsemanship has evolved in to different aligned methods more recently which are better taught now and more and more riders are taking on board natural
horsemanship methods.

I was taught traditional classical methods of schooling in my youth but I’m old so that was forty years ago now.

More recently, I returned to riding, bought my own horse and have been having intermittent lessons with someone who is a very very skilled practitioner in natural horsemanship and liberty - I am not talking Monty Roberts chasing around a pen endlessly for no good reason - it’s much more subtle and thorough and gentle than that. More Warwick Schiller meets Emma Massingale with a gentle but firm featherlight touch!

Natural horsemanship was completely new to me and I find it fascinating but I am not very skilled in it as yet so I don’t have as much confidence with it as I do in the methods I was taught originally. I’m doing a lot of groundwork obviously and I love it but it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, especially as my horse is eleven years old and quite a stubborn weight carrier type.

The lessons are expensive and some days have gone great and other days I’ve felt frustrated as I’m relearning basic stuff eg putting a horse back in the stable, and even that I can’t seem to do right the new way! I have come to appreciate the importance of groundwork though and how it feeds in to work under saddle.

Anyway, I have come to a sort of crossroads where I don’t know which road to go down. I don’t compete or anything, other than in-hand at a very local village show or doing the most basic of dressage, I mainly hack and hope to drive as I get older. And I am at the mid point where I have left my old methods behind but I am not totally skilled at the new methods yet. And the lessons are mega expensive. So I am having a bit of a wobble.

To compound this I got some really snotty comments recently from people at my yard who are very embedded shall we say in traditional methods, some of whom
are very good horsemen, asking what did I think I doing “fannying about” and “he’s not a circus trick pony you know”.

Any advice please? Sorry this was so long!

And yeah I’m up early because “the beast” is due to be loaded up to see the vet before work this morning having bruised his cannon bone yesterday and bashed just above his eye, don’t ask, I wasn’t there when it happened, but it’s nothing that won’t mend thankfully!

Who are they to say he's not a 'circus trick pony' he's your horse not theirs- he can be anything you want him to be and their interpretation of it doesn't matter. It's not something I have any skill in myself however I find it all fascinating and wish I had the time and money to learn. I've just bought a youngster that has been started by someone who follows Warwick schillers methods and my word what a relaxed, easy and polite pony he is. Easiest youngster I've ever dealt with. I actually feel a bit guilty that I can't continue his training more consistently because it has clearly worked very well. Don't get me wrong I am very experienced and have no concerns about bringing on a youngster but in the more traditional way. I've taken some advice from the lady I bought him off and spent time just getting to know him where as normally I'd just have got on and cracked on with him much sooner. Definitely a lot to be learned these days and if you can spent time learning and it's working for your horse that's great. Liberty is amazing to watch.

P.s hope your beast is ok!

I really like legerete which isn’t hippy dippy nonsense but is all about schooling your horse correctly so you aren’t needing to use big bits, or to smack your horse to go up a pace, and socking things in the gin and pony club kicking etc are also very much not on the menu.
It’s very kind but also sensible in that it allows for the fact that people want to ride and school their horses, and even compete them… and they may not be into bitless and barefoot.

I worked in racing many many centuries ago, and it was a little breakthrough for me that most sports horses despite the spotless yards and expensive vets are not actually cared for in terms of their mental well-being, limited turnout that’s often individual, awful high sugar/starch feed, being worked far too hard too soon (this is true of a lot of disciplines, knowing what we know how about how a horse develops I can’t believe that the BYEH classes still exist as they do for bloody four year olds) . Etc
I think the way riding and horsemanship is taught in this country is appalling, how much “smack them until they do it” is taught to riders that need to learn to be more effective? So many people (you see it on threads on here)complaining about naughty horses which sound so ulcer-y. Horses don’t have the capacity to be “naughty.”
Essentially what I’m getting as is I’m not a natural horsemanship in terms of riding in a rope halter person but I think there is a space for kind horsemanship while also wanting to compete/have a correctly schooled horse

Parelli isn't natural in any way shape or form and I'm pleased that it has been discredited. The problem with 'natural horsemanship' is that a lot of it gets lost in translation and end up with middle aged women waving white flags at their horses with no idea of what they are trying to achieve and produces horses with no manners!
I think we have have come a long way from the old fashioned 'breaking in' of horses and now have the knowledge that when a horse is misbehaving then 99% of the time there is a physical issue eg ulcers/KS etc. However I also strongly feel that we have also lost some of the common sense from the old days eg around feeding/keeping horses living out etc. Too many horses treated like "fur babies" rather than horses.
True classical riding is beautiful and something we should all be striving for however the majority of people do not understood it correctly.
Do whatever makes you happy but always have an end goal in mind ie what are you trying to achieve rather than just chucking money and time at something.

This is a better worded way of what I wanted to say!

This is a polite version of what I wanted to say. I always think a lot of these methods appeal to women who don't actually want to ride properly at all.

I also think 'traditional riding' has improved very much in terms of ensuring horses are comfortable and that bad behaviour is often caused by pain.

Parelli was absolutely weird and must have produced a lot of confused horses.

Actually I forgot to add that the thing I hate about modern riding is the proliferation of tack and lack of education around bits/bitting and tack fitting. In the olden days we had 4 bits: eggbutt snaffle, kimblewick, pelham, double. Horses did XC and SJ in snaffles with only a martingale. I loathe seeing SJ (particularly SJ) in 2 different nosebands, really severe bits + various martingales. Case in point at our yard: teenage girl wants a new grackle bridle because she thinks it looks more advanced but has no clue what a grackle is for. Her pony 100% doesn't need a grackle, what it needs is correct schooling and a better fitting bit. However she can't be bothered to ride during the week and just wants to hop on for competitions at the weekend, parents haven't a clue so next competition the pony cones out in a brand new grackle noseband which isn't even fitted correctly and proceeds to knock 3 fences down which it never usually does. Teenager has a tantrum and throws pony back into stable.
This is what I mean when I say we have lost some of the old fashioned common sense and knowledge of horsecare.

I like some of Warwick Schillers stuff and a lot of Dr Susan Fay. I'm in a very equine centred area and some of the things I see and hear is hard when you don't subscribe to the BHS way.

There's a lady on instagram under GenuineEquine and she posts a lot of scientific studies on horses and the different ways they're handled.

Thank you for these responses everyone which I am reading at work while inhaling my lunch.

Beast is ok thanks already back loafing around his turnout with his mates having had an ultrasound and cold compress treatment he didn't really need but better safe than sorry. First injury he has sustained under my care so being over cautious. He's not lame and there's no heat in the leg just a tiny bit of swelling where he obviously bashed it on something. I've no idea what though, I've walked around all of the fields and his barn four times and nothing to see so possibly another horse.

Thanks liveforsummer I needed to hear that. Good luck with your youngster, he sounds amazing.

And thanks everyone I've no doubts at all about new care methods which have come directly from behavioural science. Too many issues caused by lack of turnout and overly rich food fed too infrequently. Also agree about an over-reliance on complicated tack used to solve problems which should be solved by putting some patient work in. Absolutely no purple tack or fur babying here, except when it comes to good veterinary care because prevention is always better than cure imho.

Will have a look at legerete. Thank you lastqueenofscotland2.

Eek I hope I am not that middle aged woman ineffectually waving a flag! Well I don't have a flag but I do have a training stick. I certainly do try and ride properly but my core isn't what it once was. It's improving again though. Agree you have to have a proper goal in mind. A good practical example of old and new methods combining well which I am working on atm is getting my horse to come and position himself correctly at the mounting block. Agree you have to have a very clear end in mind.

Thanks for those recommendations Wildflowerbees. Totally agree about some of the harsher methods you see.

Thanks everyone. In summary a balance of sound classical equitation, or as near as I can get to it nowadays, combined with sensible natural horsemanship is the way to go? I must admit it felt good when my boy backed up nicely for the lorry this morning and walked in calmly and wasn't at all bargy like he used to be. It was the first time he had done that so it must be the lessons that made a difference.

There's nothing wrong with a grackle. They are kinder than a flash strap IMO.

The main issue these days is that people don't ride their horses enough! No hacking, just round and round in a school for 20 minutes a few times a week, or playing with flags etc. Get on them and go for a long hack three or four times a week! No wonder so many modern horses have behavioural issues. Also lots of livery yards have no winter turnout, which combined with limited actual riding would turn any horse into a monster.

I prefer to keep and open mind and look at all methods I was never a fan of Parelli but I have to say I'm really impressed with Ryan Reynolds. His stuff is on YouTube. He explains things well , he's not above showing when he's gotten it wrong too. I've tried lots of his training on one of my very quirky (drama queen) Highlands with great success. He seems to be a hit mile middle of the road than some of the natural trainers.

If you actually read my comment: the pony doesn't need a grackle it needs schooling but she can't be bothered! It doesn't cross its jaw. It is a 5 yr old pony which has had no basic proper schooling.

Been a long while since I had horses, so apologies if this is old hat. I found videos of Mark Langley on Facebook and I was blown away with his demonstrations:

fb.watch/ioP1SMkZwq/

www.equineability.com.au

I feel firstly so many owners need to look at how they talk about their horse. Things like naughty, drama queen, bad, grumpy etc.

Horses do not have a prefrontal cortex they don't have it in for people, do anything to annoy or for their amusement they are firstly a prey animal reliant on their emotions.

Labelling a horse isn't helpful, horses don't behave badly. They react to the situation around them and their own comfort ie oh he's so grumpy yet owner hasn't fully investigated for pain etc.

Only when people realise that they are sentient beings and what a privilege it is to have such a powerful animal alongside us can we change the behaviours towards them.

Oops! Guess I should stop referring to “the beast” in that case Wildflowerbees 🤣😀. He’s lovely really! 😃 And I agree with you that labels are very unhelpful. You need to respond to the horse you have there right in front of you in that moment, and not any pre-conceived idea of it.

I am also very interested in your point about the absence of a pre-frontal cortex. (In other words they are teenagers! 🤣. Just kidding!) Would like to learn more about this.

Thanks Happenstance I will watch that later. I haven’t heard of many of the trainers pps have mentioned, except Ryan Reynolds, so will be interested to research them further.

Agree very much with Greatly that horses don’t get enough exercise. Also, there is no replacement for “doing” rather than theorising.

This ties in to some of my reservations about strict step-by-step education or training methods, namely that horses ime are as individual as humans and no set formula fits all. You need to get to know them and spend a lot of time with them in all sorts of different situations to get to know how each one responds on an individual basis.

@Streptocarpus982 a good horseman will automatically assess each horse and get to know them and thereby adapt their techniques. It is essential to have stages/steps as building blocks to scaffold horse development in hand/ridden eg scales of training. You can't have collection without all the other steps. The danger with 'natural' horsemanship is that it is cited by people who have seen a couple og demonstrations but don't understand the foundations of horse development. Most professionals do have a rough formula based on many years of experience of what works for them (as well as detailed knowledge of horses) but they will constantly adapt to how the horse is responding. If they are dealing with backing a young horse then definitely you need a step by step regime to give that horse the safest and best experience possible.
We need to be very careful not to tar traditional horsemanship with a brush of being out of touch or even harmful to the horse, a lot of it is built on common sense and a good understanding of the horse. There is a place for both schools of though and I feel that when they meet in the middle then this is when the horse benefits most.

I don’t disagree with that Twisty. Probably didn’t explain myself well. Of course you need to work through a series of steps when bringing a young horse on or when learning any new skill for that matter. Agree that is essential.

I meant that some people take various horsemanship techniques and apply them across the board where it is totally inappropriate or in a way that doesn’t suit a horse’s individual temperament, whereas the person who invented the method would probably apply it more judiciously.

@Streptocarpus982 but that applies to any school of thought/training whether it be more old fashioned style through to natural horsemanship. I think it is most beneficial to have an open mind, learn the basics from the old school trainers and then develop your mind to embrace the best of newer methods. Completely discarding either is not a good thing. I suppose as I am BHS/old style showing and hunting yard trained that I will always lean more towards these techniques however I do learn from more modern training too and am very open to constantly learning.

Perfectly put, couldn't agree more.

And tbh I get tired of hearing of bored frustrated horses that their owners are over feeding and under exercising being forced down the NH route when what they need is some bloody hard work! Horses thrive on it, they enjoy it. But then I am an ex groom who has worked many, many years with eventers/hunters/ racehorses! There are lots of problems that can be ironed out by a couple of hours decent exercise a day.

Yes this! After pumping horses full of unnecessary feed they then plonk them on a calmer cos horse is too hot 🙄 Hence why I said a lot of the common sense and knowledge of old fashioned horsemanship has sadly been lost

Completely agree! Natural horsemanship is becoming more of a thing while unnatural ways of keeping horses have also increased too. When I first had horses (40 years ago) there was only one full livery yard in the area, and 95% of yards were just a basic stable and a field. Horses went out daily, 24/7 in summer. No yards had schools. People hacked. People didn’t tend to keep horses in busy/built up areas, horses were for the country. Nowadays 95% of yards round here have limited turnout in winter, but wonderful schools. Horses are kept in indoor barns a lot. They ride them in schools, clip all their coats off because the owners all clip their own and nobody can do lines (back in the day I didn’t even have a full clip on my hunter, and I never clipped a horse until I was practically a BHSAI). People seem to choose yards for their facilities that make life better for them, but not the horse. And as someone above mentioned, people buy tack for fashion reasons rather than knowing what it does and whether it’s needed.

Personally I’m think I’m quite anti natural horsemanship because I think 90% of it is somewhat untrustworthy instructors getting their claws into novice riders with, sometimes, more money than sense. Good horsemanship is best. Taking time to understand the horse and working out why it’s doing what it’s doing. Building a partnership. I was very much BHS trained and of the get on anything and push through it genre. I think I listen more to the horse nowadays., not that I ignored them in the past. I don’t teach much nowadays, or have liveries on my yard. I find a lot of horsey people think they know more than they actually do by a country mile, and I got exhausted by it.

I wasn’t suggesting discarding either completely twisty I was agreeing with you!