Has there been a thread about natural horsemanship, liberty etc v more traditional training methods?

[Streptocarpus982]

I just wondered where everyone is ‘at’ with this atm? I’d welcome some honest opinions please. I know Parelli in particular wasn’t popular on here about 10 years ago but horsemanship has evolved in to different aligned methods more recently which are better taught now and more and more riders are taking on board natural
horsemanship methods.

I was taught traditional classical methods of schooling in my youth but I’m old so that was forty years ago now.

More recently, I returned to riding, bought my own horse and have been having intermittent lessons with someone who is a very very skilled practitioner in natural horsemanship and liberty - I am not talking Monty Roberts chasing around a pen endlessly for no good reason - it’s much more subtle and thorough and gentle than that. More Warwick Schiller meets Emma Massingale with a gentle but firm featherlight touch!

Natural horsemanship was completely new to me and I find it fascinating but I am not very skilled in it as yet so I don’t have as much confidence with it as I do in the methods I was taught originally. I’m doing a lot of groundwork obviously and I love it but it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, especially as my horse is eleven years old and quite a stubborn weight carrier type.

The lessons are expensive and some days have gone great and other days I’ve felt frustrated as I’m relearning basic stuff eg putting a horse back in the stable, and even that I can’t seem to do right the new way! I have come to appreciate the importance of groundwork though and how it feeds in to work under saddle.

Anyway, I have come to a sort of crossroads where I don’t know which road to go down. I don’t compete or anything, other than in-hand at a very local village show or doing the most basic of dressage, I mainly hack and hope to drive as I get older. And I am at the mid point where I have left my old methods behind but I am not totally skilled at the new methods yet. And the lessons are mega expensive. So I am having a bit of a wobble.

To compound this I got some really snotty comments recently from people at my yard who are very embedded shall we say in traditional methods, some of whom
are very good horsemen, asking what did I think I doing “fannying about” and “he’s not a circus trick pony you know”.

Any advice please? Sorry this was so long!

@Streptocarpus982 sorry I wasn't suggesting that you were disregarding it, just that some people tend to veer to an extreme either way instead of taking the best from a variety of methods.

Thank you for everyone else’s insights.

Bit depressing about modern barns Honeyroar!

Yes indeed, no worries. I started the thread feeling confused but I am glad that the consensus is that both modern & traditional methods can run alongside one another. That’s v good news as far as I am concerned.

I have dabbled in NH over the years and spent some time with Monty Roberts. I'm not a fan of join up, but have incorporated some of his techniques. I'm amazed at how many horse owners have owned their horses for years but still can't read their body language, can't tell when they are in pain or discomfort, don't know how to scratch their horse to reward it, don't know how to back up a horse to get it out of their space etc.

Strong agree about welfare. Horses are herd animals, like routine, 24/7 turnout and grazing and need hay rather than big bucket feeds

The one thing I will say in defence of people that don’t hack (I don’t much, but I do box up to go off road fairly often) is that U.K. roads are so much worse than they used to be. You used to get the odd inconsiderate git in an old Volvo estate (it was always a Volvo estate…) who wouldn’t give you any room now I’d say 30% of the cars we deal with are awful, big groups of leisure cyclists that won’t slow down for an obviously nervous horse, bigger vans on little lanes etc.

Although the hill that I will die on is that no one learns to ride properly anymore. Riding schools are far more about creating a fun extra curricular activity than creating good riders.
They also rarely have “proper” horses. Back around the time of the Norman conquests we had our own ponies but used to go to a riding school once a month for a brush up, they had some seriously wizzy ex games ponies, a few retired competition horses, some genuinely green horses, horses that if you were unbalanced or heavy handed would respond accordingly! So few places are like that anymore.

I blame a lot of horse troubles on livery yards. Livery yards with 10 stables need 20 acres of turnout, not the stupid 15 stables with 5 acres you find everywhere nowadays. Just because you can keep a horse in a stable for 23 hours and let it out in a school for an hour/day (either with or without a jockey) doesn't mean that you should.

Horses need to live in grass fields - not tiny turnout paddocks. The 'track systems' which people are raving about are ridiculous. Put a horse in a field - and they need to be an acre at the very smallest - and it walks miles in a day. Tiny paddocks and daily poo picking mean that horses eat where they shit and that isn't good for anything. Your field needs to be big enough for sour patches for poop on - I'm not saying never poo pick, but don't do it often.

The horse-whispering parelli types are American and not very relevant to the way that we keep horses in the UK - the American way of treating, breaking, handling and working horses is COMPLETELY different from our own.

And while I'm having a rant, in the olden days only lucky kids on farms had horses surrounded by decades of livestock knowledge. They looked after them everyday, all attention was on the pony not chatting to mates, lots of turnout, big fields that were properly cared for, hacking was everything, schooling was something done on grass when the ground was kind. Tack was basic, martingales were worn only by badly schooled horses, strapping the mouth shut was a last resort.

In fact just stop strapping mouths shut, it's horrible, hardly anything needs it. Get rid of the martingales - many are so badly fitted that they don't actually do anything anyway. Get rid of everything you possibly can - breastplates, boots, and those bloody ear bonnets and nose nets, less really is more.

And clipping - what the hell has happened to clipping? Why are people just doing full clips just to hack out twice a week or do a few circles in an arena? Why are people clipping and ruggin tiny hairy lead rein ponies that barely break into a trot? What has happened to clipping to the horse and it's level of work? It's madness.

It's not 'natural horsemanship' it's just common sense and an intrinsic understanding of livestock that a lot of horse owners on livery yards sadly don't have.

I agree. We compete our horses and they are clipped, but only blanket clips and they live out all the time except before a competition to dry off. We don't have an arena, we hack and set up a dressage arena in the field from May onwards. They are happy and healthy. No hard feed either and one supplement.

@BaroldBalonz yes!

The 'track systems' which people are raving about are ridiculous.

Why do you say that? Our 5 barefoot horses are out 24/7 on a 2km long PP track (which yes, we poo pick daily!) and they are all in great condition - physically and mentally.

I put a GPS tracker on one of the horses for 12 hours and this is how much he moved. Wouldn't be able to do that in a field or a stable...

Why do you think horses can’t move around in a field @Eyesopenwideawake ? I’m lucky enough to be able to look out of my window at the horses and every time I look they’re in a different place. They also have enough space to have a wild hooley around when they want to.

Some interesting thoughts here. I wondered when we were going to get on to discussing tracks! 😀

I can't really comment as my only experience of tracks is when someone we know through our yard spent a lot on fencing a track on the property she was moving to, and it became such a mud bath this autumn and winter that it's already abandoned, at least until the weather improves anyway.

That's a very interesting photo though Eyesopenwideawake! You do see a lot of good "before" and "after" photos on sm of laminitic ponies who have lost weight on tracks.

sandranista I very much agree with you about all riders needing a basic knowledge of horse body language, and like you, am surprised by some owners who are accomplished riders, not knowing a thing about it, or dismissing it as poppycock! I feel the same way about some dog owners too tbh!

But I didn't want this thread to turn in to a negative them v us discussion as that is too much like my yard 😄. I think we can all unite around what is best from a horse welfare pov eg clipping. My boy is hairy, lives out 24/7 except in extreme weather.

Also very much about it having become much more dangerous to ride on roads Lastqueenofscotland2 and there generally being a lack of proper turn out on yards BaroldBalonz.

It's a double whammy isn't it? In the days when horses were our main mode of transport, they were kept in tiny mews stables in every town but they were doing solid work, all day every day. And those that are stabled nowadays tend to be ridden for an hour after work and turned out for a couple of hours a day if they are lucky.

Btw BaroldBalonz I don't disagree with your comment:

The horse-whispering parelli types are American and not very relevant to the way that we keep horses in the UK - the American way of treating, breaking, handling and working horses is COMPLETELY different from our own.

but I am interested then to know why it's still so popular in Europe? I have been on many a French and German riding holiday where these sorts of demonstrations and techniques are employed.

I rate Richard Maxwell. He “learned” horses when he trained with the cavalry so is no-nonsense and NAFH (not a fucking hippy) - however he blends this with a more sympathetic/natural approach which simply makes sense.

I really like track systems… however they do attract some cranks…

I am a bit suspicious of the track system as they can't have a mad buck, roll, gallop around like a crazy thing etc etc

Natural horsemanship is a much used and abused term these days. Parelli kind of started it, but it's been adopted by many different trainers and even extended to whether horses wear a bit or not.
Monty did a lot to open people up to changing how they are with their horses. Unfortunately, if you read the book Horse Whispers and Lies it seems that he learned his trade from his dad and never went to watch horses in the wild. (The book is full of easily checked evidence to support that). I've just finished reading a rare copy of his dad's book - Horse and Horseman Training. Very interesting because it pre-dates Monty coming to fame and firmly demonstrates "inconsistencies" in Monty's book.
Parelli got sucked into trying to replicate a training approach via videos etc and aiming to make a lot of money. You can't teach "feel" from the other side of the world imho.
I decide on who I want to learn from by watching them work with horses. Leaning towards what a lot of people call "natural" but really it originates with horsemen like Ray Hunt and Tom and Bill Dorrance - who were amazing horsemen but certainly not bunny huggers.
My favourite trainer is Stephen Halfpenny, who has been influenced by western, Parelli, California vaquero, classical (Manolo Mendez). Great bloke to learn from but whether he'll every come back to the UK who knows. I follow his on-line club now. Warwick Schiller and John Saint Ryan are on my list too. I've ridden on two clinics in the States with Buck Brannaman and one a while back with his brother Smokie.
We are lucky enough to have our own track system at home for our horses. It ranges around about 10 acres of mixed terrain, including woodland and a stream. Some of the tracks are surfaced, and it's fenced so that we can close areas off if they start to get boggy. They have a sandpit to roll in and an open barn for shelter. I know, it's like the holy grail of tracks and we're very lucky. Of course the horses can buck, roll and gallop - the tracks have to be wide enough to allow fast movement in a group, especially on the corners. There's no way a field turnout gives horses the same enrichment, but then as I say we are hugely lucky to give them this. Whatever livery you choose, there are good, bad and indifferent, whether they are on a track or not. Two things I'd never settle for, when I was at livery with my horses - individual turnout and 24/7 stabling.

"the American way of treating, breaking, handling and working horses is COMPLETELY different from our own"

That can be a good thing! I guess what I learned was an approach that came from the States. I'm pleased to say is is very different to the approach to "breaking" horses that I saw as a kid. The first sit on a horse for me is bareback and in a rope halter. So is their first ride. Very calm, gentle steps at a time. Progressing to a sidepull bitless bridle. Then a western hackamore with a bosal. Maybe a bit at some stage. It's a process that you have to get right with no force, because when it's just you, a horse and a halter, you can't force anything. I've got a lovely pony visiting to be started and I can't wait.

Um...

A lot of so called natural horsemanship methods like Pat Parelli and Monty Roberts rely on plain old negative reinforcement/pressure release which is anything but kind and gentle.

There are levels though aren't there? The 4 phases in Parelli are not nice at all. But anyone who rides using reins and their legs is happy to apply pressure and release. Everyone goes on about their horse responding to energy, and it's possible to train that, but the majority are using slightly more pronounced aids.

Even my friendly clicker trainer friend rides very conventionally, she uses more pull on her reins than I'd find acceptable.

There's a horsewoman in the UK I respect immensely who doesn't get out and about, just does her own thing. She said that sometimes just putting a gentle feel on a rope is like taking a child's hand to guide it in the right direction. (It's pressure and release though). Standing waiting for the horse to guess what is required of it, so that they can then get a click and a treat, seems to force them into an unfair guessing game.

Nice thread.

I haven’t had time to read all replies but personally I found two people I enjoyed learning from - just don’t know if they’re still putting material out there or not. One was Anja Béran, for her riding in balance and lightness, but also super in-hand work, the other was Kelly Marks for the horsemanship side.

It was trial and error until then. I also did lessons with Andy Booth (Australian chap known in France) as I was struggling with a very emotional horse, but was disappointed with his lack of interest in what turned out to be a physical issue (two actually) - the dreaded ulcers, and also insulin resistance. (In my defense I had fought hard for ad lib hay -which is unheard of in France - good turnout, and also very low sugar feeds such as soaked beets etc but the damage was done).

For me it’s been good to watch a few different people, decide what it is that you like from them, and combine to suit your horse (and the horse-rider dynamic you’ve got going). No one person or ‘school’ is likely to be the answer.

@Eyesopenwideawake are you in the UK? The only tracks I've seen around here tend to be around the edge of a field that was formerly just tiny paddocks, they're quite narrow, and feature areas of aggregate/concrete for high pressure feeding areas.

I can't really understand the blue squiggles photo as it's difficult to judge scale, but have you fenced off each blue line so that they loads of tracks to choose from? Or do they have access to a far wider track than is typically seen (more like field to field tracks) and the tracker has not been all that accurate? What area of land is in the photograph?

An amazing track livery www.uklandandfarms.co.uk/media/properties/brochures/201602100439166116.pdf

www.facebook.com/ThreeRavensNaturalBoarding/photos

Andy Booth was the man with Stormy the Zorse in his Parelli days.

Oh, and how could I miss mentioning Mark Rashid? Another great horseman that people say does "natural horsemanship" - but he's horrified that they apply that lable to him.