Five year old for an oldie novice?

[PrincessGraceless]

Hi all - I’m nearly 60 and returned to riding last year after a 30-odd year break. I’m very practical about my abilities. Before lockdown, I had a lot of lessons over months rather than years, and was confident at walk and trot and working on improving canter (more because I was nervous than any holding back by instructors). I’m regularly told I have a good seat and I come across as confident as a rider, but actually I’m a wuss. Having been carted etc along roads as a young person, and terrified, I probably know too much and the thought of that now horrifies me! However, I am super-sensible and if/when I buy a horse (hope it’s when, and soon!), I will keep him (or her - more anon) at a livery with lessons or good riding school and definitely somewhere where not only I can have lessons but other, competent people will ride. Am I mad to consider a 4 rising 5 year old? Seen online and looks great. Very quiet, if anything needs kicking on, or so I’m told. Has done stuff like a bit of hunting. I would ask an instructor to look at her (yes, a mare - always ruled them out) but just wondered what thoughts are here. Can it work out for a nervous novice to buy a relative youngster (with professional help) and is it possible for a youngster to really be this quiet? Middleweight cob from a reputable yard. I have budget and can afford upkeep etc (benefit of being old). Thanks!

Some youngsters can be very quiet, but in all honesty I don't think in your situation I would. A different yard and routine can produce some interesting behaviours, especially with an inexperienced horse. The saying green on green makes black and blue didn't arise for no reason!
School horses also tend to be a different kettle of fish as they are well worked and have routine and regular schooling, put the same horse in a normal environment and it can be a very different beast and it is easy to overestimate abilties.
I'd probably advise going for something with a bit of mileage that knows its job and will look after you. Taking your instructor is a good idea.

I also second taking your instructor. And definitely don't rule out mares! I have two mares, who are both wonderful. You just have to remember that they have more hormonal variation than geldings, and be a bit sympathetic to their cycles, if they appear affected by them.

Your support setup sounds good, but I think you need to talk with your instructor about what you want from a horse. Are you really that keen to be learning all about training and schooling a youngster? If this development fascinates you, is this the right stage in your own development as a rider to be starting on this path? What exactly are your plans as a rider, and what kind of horse would make this easy? The right horse is out there, and there's no hurry in finding her!

(Says the person who ended up with her horses more or less by accident, but got really lucky...)

I think a novice young horse and nervous novice rider sounds like a recipe for disaster irrespective of other more competent people riding as well . Sorry OP but I’d keep looking .

Hmm I think probably I wouldn't if it was me, to be honest, a lot of 4 rising 5 year olds seem very steady and calm, dopes on ropes almost and then some, maybe 10 or 20%, stay that way throughout, but the majority go through some kind of fit of the Kevin's between the ages of 5 to 7, a cob or draft type in particular may not be fully mature at 4.5 and a growth spurt seems to be a trigger for some, as can a change of yard or routine or feed or even a change of rider. It's just a theory of mine but I think the breaking in followed by the 'socialisation' process of getting out hacking, hunting, to little shows etc that most well brought up youngsters are put through, bamboozles them a bit particularly if they are physically gangly or weak and so they seem super well behaved and quiet, actually they just haven't worked it all out yet and don't know their own strength. And when they do, the clever ones in particular will start trying out 'new' behaviours which can be not desirable!

It could be totally fine of course but even some 'normal' testing of boundaries or signs of anxiety in a young but strong horse can be a bit alarming and stressful to deal with even if you have lots of support. I'd go for an older horse if I was you, one that's already in an amateur home doing a similar job to what you want (hacking or dressage or hunting or whatever you want to do). If a compromise has to be made due to price, I'd go for an older than ideal horse rather than a younger one, a teenage native or cob type that's been there, done that could well have 10 years useful life left in them and will be a much more relaxing and confidence giving ride than a baby you are permanently worrying about having to educate properly...

Agree with @Drinkarsefeck and @maxelly - you might be lucky, there are some angelic youngsters who stay that way. But it’s the exception rather than the rule. Seen so many where the change of surroundings/routine and often change from a pro rider to a more novice /nervous rider has been a total disaster. Sadly it’s generally the horse that suffers in these situations and it can set them up for a lifetime of being passed around for ‘behaviour issues’ which could have easily been avoided. I’d definitely steer clear in this situation and go with a been there, done that, got the t shirt type. Most important thing is to have fun and feel confident as a combination. Good luck!

I’ve read all your replies carefully and am very grateful for your incites. Thank you! You seem to be pretty much of one voice. Purchase price isn’t an issue so I can pretty well go for what’s best - obviously not looking for a showjumper or anything!). I suppose I was thinking - it’s so hard to find a bloomin’ good 8-12 year old, especially if you’re not ‘in the know’ (and who knows what habits they’ve developed?) and that maybe an exceptional youngster ie quiet and sensible (with pro help for us both) might be a route worth considering. But I hear you! What am I looking for? Above all, as safe as possible (and I know there’s always a risk). Flatwork, hacking, maybe working to low-level jumping. I may be older, but I’m super keen and committed and feel a bit like it’s now or never. I have owned before, DIY back in the day, so I have a pretty good idea what’s involved commitment-wise, even though it wouldn’t be DIY this time. I’d definitely want to be hands on and not someone who swans up occasionally. I just want to be around horses, have my own and ride! And don’t worry @UncleBunclesHouse - I’d never let a horse be passed from pillar to post. I’m extremely committed and if it came to getting unstuck (hopefully not literally) I would ensure things were sorted before finding a good home. But I don’t want to get into that situation for the horse’s sake or mine. Thanks again all.

@PrincessGraceless, I am in a similar situation to you although I have never owned my own horse before. Im 56 and god back into riding after a 22 year break during first lockdown. I tried sharing but in November an opportunity came up and I bought my first horse.
I have heron part livery at a riding school /livery yard with lots of help and support. I have weekly lessons which have helped me no end.
My 'dream' was an Arab, but I came to realise that I needed to be realistic and I have bought a 10 year old 14'2 warmblood pony who was for sale through a friend of a friend. She is brilliant, enough of a challenge to keep me on my toes and help me progress, but she know her stuff. Honestly knowing what I know now, I would no way buy a young horse... we older ones are often lucky that the financials are not so tight - the right horse is out there!

I think, OP, that @unclebungleshouse is being more realistic. If you are not confident yourself in canter, I think you need to honestly think how you can teach a novice horse to canter and jump properly and confidently. You seem sensible, but it is likely you will end up teaching the horse bad habits yourself, and then spend months/years not riding your (expensive) pet, and paying your instructor or a behaviour expert great sums of money to “fix” the mare. I’ve seen it happen many times before (with owners more experienced than yourself too), and at the end the owner is still too scared of their horse and it ends up sold or a bored field/stable ornament. Ask your instructor and local riding/pony clubs to help you with your search for something suitable. They may know of just the thing and will have an idea of the horse’s background.

Finally, mares are ace! Don’t write them off, I love the bonds I’ve formed with mine. The right one will mother you as much as you’ll mother her.

I feel you OP, horse hunting is really hard, the trouble with looking for the 'bloomin good 8 - 12 year old' is that that's exactly what everyone else wants too plus this time of year is not brilliant to be looking, I think things should pick up a lot come the spring. I think you just need to be patient and hold on, the right horse is out there for you!

As I said I 100% would not exclude something older than 12 esp if a native type as they tend to go on well into their 20s especially if in light-ish work, and perhaps you could also consider some less popular breeds to broaden your search criteria a little more, the steadiest, soundest, most sane horse on our yard is an 18 year old ex-racing TB, you'd trust him with any rider from a little kid to a granny and his owner is inundated with requests from people to hack out with them so he can 'nanny' their youngster or nutter as he's so reliable. But if she was ever to sell him (which she won't of course) I'm sure he'd not be worth anything like as much as if he was a native or ISH or other popular breed, and a lot of people would pass him over as they assume all OFTT TBs are nutters, lame or difficult keepers... I am absolutely not saying all retrained racehorses are the same, of course some fit the stereotype and again if they are young or just off the track I'd not recommend, I am just saying don't write an older horse off on the grounds of breed, type or age if it can be shown to be already successful and reliable in a similar environment/job to yours! Good luck!

Would you consider a loan or share op? Owning is quite a commitment, and getting it wrong can be a nightmare. Sharing or loaning would give you valuable experience with a bit of a safety net in place to begin with.

I absolutely wouldn’t. If you aren’t confident in canter a green horse is a recepie for disaster even the quiet ones still need a hand.
I think you’d be better off going for an older, forgiving schoolmaster type.
If you were less novice but just a bit nervous I’d feel differently.

I’m always wary of people saying 4/5 year olds are suitable for novices. I’ve found at that age they can go through mad personality swings! My very quiet 4 year old who literally any one could have had a walk and trot round on is now a very sharp 5 year old.

Personally I’d go for something in its teens that’s been around the block a few times.

Also to add
I would be incredibly wary of any professional dealer/seller willing to sell such a young horse to someone who couldn’t properly canter.

And if it is a professional yard you might find their quiet is not your idea of quiet! I used to ride racehorses for my job and literally couldn’t care less about things that spook or pop in the odd excited buck for example.
I think when you ride things that are very quirky/sharp/forward your idea of quiet can be a bit broader than others!

I am sorry to hammer the point OP, I’ve just seen people fall in love with the romance of a younger horse so many times for it to result in them both destroying their confidence.

Especially if you are a bit nervous I would 100% recommend being very under-horsed than slightly over horsed

I did this, I bought a 4 year old cob after a few years off. It worked well for me but I only hacked so never worried about schooling him or bringing on his education.
Even though it worked out fine I had to deal with a fair few ‘youngster moments’. He is a really laid back lad but we met things he hadn’t seen before. The dealer he was with were on a main road so he was fine with all traffic but once when we passed a school the sound of all the kids running up screaming made him bolt. He didn’t want me off and calmed down once he’d got us swiftly past the scary playground.
If you don’t think you could handle the odd ‘moment’ then go for an older horse. By around 8 it should be clearer what their personality is and they will also have seen more things.

I am an experienced rider/owner, have had horses pretty much all my life but hadn’t ever really wanted to bring on a youngster. After some crap buying experiences I ended up with a 4 year old (although I was under the impression that she was 6 when I tried her) in Oct 19 - and a chestnut mare at that.

It has been a pretty steep learning curve for us, both rewarding and challenging, however I’ve had a lot of help and lessons which have been invaluable.

As a novice I would be wary however, as much as for your benefit as the horse’s. It’s a massive undertaking and a big responsibility too, it would be such a shame if you were too nervous to enjoy yourself. There are good older horses out there (our other one is a fit and well 17yo), it just takes time.

Thank you again everyone! I’ve been working today so not much MN but will read all your posts more carefully tomorrow. Lots of great advice. Really so glad I asked.

I wouldn't. Had a bit of a disastrous experience myself last year and I'm an experienced rider who'd had a few years off due to babies. Ridden all sorts, racehorses, youngsters, competed in XC, showjumping, riding club etc. Decided to get my own again as time to myself. Found a lovely, quiet, chilled six year old who I tried several times before buying but who became edgy and nappy once she was at mine, despite hacking out in company. Ended up being bucked off in a completely spontaneous bucking fit and breaking my pelvis in a hard fall. Still don't know what caused it, but it has made me very wary of anything young, however calm. Had to sell her on as a project because there is no way I can risk coming off again and she needs more work than it appeared. You definitely need a schoolmaster type if you're not cantering yet, in my honest opinion.

Just to add, I sold her to someone I know who is keeping in touch and she's progressing well. One of the worst things, after the initial few weeks in hospital and recovering, was finding a good home for her where I could feel happy that she would be nurtured and not sold on and on.

@littlemisslozza I hope you’re ok now! That sounds awful.

I think (know) I’ve been convinced by all the sound advice on here that I would indeed be mad to go for a youngster - learning together would not be a good idea and is also going to be very expensive, as I wouldn’t expect to be able to bring her on myself. I think perhaps I underestimated how much schooling and education a five year old still needs.

It’s very frustrating at the moment as I haven’t been able to ride at all this year, with everywhere closed, and of course a long, enforced break last year, too. Also, even when riding schools are open, it’s hard to get more than a couple of lessons a week (maybe an hour in total) and I’m keen to up my competency ASAP. I’m a considerate rider with a good position etc and would be fine I think practising in the school between lessons if I had something to ride! I’d still have as many lessons as I could and if kept horse at a good school would be keen for him/her to be used in lessons and hacking so it wasn’t just me riding, especially at first.

I’m not against the idea of a share but did that back in the day for a while and it didn’t work out (different opinions on stable management mainly - I was too too kind with the comfy beds etc!). So I’d rather just have ‘my horse’ and I’m happy to invest to ensure I have help and tuition.

I’m finding lockdown very hard and being out of the picture means it’s also difficult to know what may be out there. I hadn’t been riding again long enough to build any strong bonds with instructors (there were a few at the school, all v good, but very much doing their jobs and moving into next pupil/s).

@maxelly I agree re an older horse and won’t rule that out.

Thank you all again!

You sound as if you're doing the right thing, being cautious and asking for help. You're better to buy something safe and steady now, you don't have to keep it forever, if you improve and want to do more you sell and get another.

It's heart-breaking to see amazing horses bought by people who buy for where they want to be, and not where they're actually at.

Try ringing round riding schools, even further afield - a lot of them are struggling and might have something for you.

As others have said, green horses often go through a teenage stage, especially as they get older and muscle up. 5/6 are definitely the teenage years, and are so important to get right! My current pony is 7, and still has his moments of a) testing the boundaries and b) coming across something new and needing genuine reassurance from me.

It's also very possible that a 4/5yo might appear quiet and sensible with a confident pro/experienced rider on board, but would find it very different with a less experienced rider. If they are not used to e.g. riders becoming unbalanced or giving mixed signals, the horse could become upset/nervous, and that could create a vicious cycle for both of you.

You also mention that you might initially want the horse on working livery- do be aware that many riding schools can't use 4yos, no matter how good, due to insurance (and officially the horse doesn't turn 5 until May). You also don't necessarily want a green horse being ridden by lots of different novice riders- long term, it probably won't do the horse any favours.

If you are nervous in canter, then you really need something very safe/sane/sensible that has been there and got the t-shirt. An older horse, maybe looking for a step down from competing etc would be ideal- a great teacher for you and able to look after you, rather than needing lots of guidance from you.

I wouldn't. Ime, you often have to almost start at the beginning again when bringing a horse in to a new environment, and you need the experience and confidence to be able to do that if necessary. It's not always necessary as some horses are quiet by nature when young and remain so, especially if they have been well trained and exposed to lots of different situations. That's more important really than age , as you can have a nine year old who has done not a lot.

I once bought a former steady RDA horse as a mother daughter share who was fine going around in circles at a riding school and thrived on the attention. Brought him home and he exploded from a combination of getting fitter and leaner, new surroundings, had separation anxiety, and he hated hacking alone and was scared of traffic even though he had been fine being hacked alone outside the riding school. In retrospect, I suspect that his early backing had left out a few important stages.

As a pp said, a lot of riding schools are very sadly struggling ATM, so I think you could probably do better than this. Ultimately it all depends on the individual horse though and the training they have had to date. But don't underestimate the confidence boost and security you get from riding in a riding school, to being solely responsible for your horse, especially from the perspective of bringing a young horse on. You need to know what you are doing and be confident about it, as your horse will take her cue from you.

Good luck with your riding. So many of us "oldies" are returning to riding nowadays and it's great! For me personally it's motivated me to lose weight and get fitter and it's been a real confidence boost. Hope you find the right horse for you.

@PrincessGraceless

I’ve read all your replies carefully and am very grateful for your incites. Thank you! You seem to be pretty much of one voice. Purchase price isn’t an issue so I can pretty well go for what’s best - obviously not looking for a showjumper or anything!). I suppose I was thinking - it’s so hard to find a bloomin’ good 8-12 year old, especially if you’re not ‘in the know’ (and who knows what habits they’ve developed?) and that maybe an exceptional youngster ie quiet and sensible (with pro help for us both) might be a route worth considering. But I hear you! What am I looking for? Above all, as safe as possible (and I know there’s always a risk). Flatwork, hacking, maybe working to low-level jumping. I may be older, but I’m super keen and committed and feel a bit like it’s now or never. I have owned before, DIY back in the day, so I have a pretty good idea what’s involved commitment-wise, even though it wouldn’t be DIY this time. I’d definitely want to be hands on and not someone who swans up occasionally. I just want to be around horses, have my own and ride! And don’t worry *@UncleBunclesHouse* - I’d never let a horse be passed from pillar to post. I’m extremely committed and if it came to getting unstuck (hopefully not literally) I would ensure things were sorted before finding a good home. But I don’t want to get into that situation for the horse’s sake or mine. Thanks again all.

Also, I hate to say it but this is hugely naive- once you sell a horse, you no longer have control of it, and if a horse has a bad start as a youngster (I know this would not be intentional) then it is not always easy to turn them into a nice, safe, sane riding horse. If it becomes unsettled in the next home, it can then revert back to learned behaviour- it becomes a vicious cycle.

Also, people lie when buying horses- someone may appear to offer a forever home, but actually be looking to sort out the horse as a "project" and sell.

The only true way to avoid a horse being passed from pillar to post is to loan it out- guaranteeing it a secure home for the rest of its life. For a 5yo, that's potentially 20 more years!

Everything you want is achievable, but would be so much easier with an already established horse, and you'd have less fear of messing it up- so it would be much easier and safer to sell it on if you need to.

Have just read your update. Yes it must be frustrating and difficult to know what is out there ATM with everything shut down. In your shoes, I think I would get in touch with your local riding club, and riding centres and just have a chat. Get yourself on to local horsey forums on the Internet. These can be breed specific, if you know what you want. Be aware that some riding schools will be shedding their least good stock. And don't rule out advertising for what you want, although be prepared to kiss a lot of frogs. Finally, there have been some good recommendations for honest dealers on here over the years, so if you want you can let people know which area of the country you are in, and I'm sure others on here will be able to advise.

Yes it is difficult to find a good 9-12 year old - especially as lots of people I know under lockdown are able to ride and enjoy their horses even more than usual (doesn't apply to everyone I know) - but don't rule out something older. I was still doing all the activities you mention on my 16 year old when I was a teen. He was fighting fit and we lost him at 24 years.

Good idea re calling riding schools and also if anyone knows of any v good dealers, I’m in the South East.