Advice - tricky pony

[ThatQuietOne]

Urgh, losing sleep over this pony!

DS (8)‘s little mare has only been with us for 5 months. Early days - but not that early. We knew she was a bit quirky when we bought her, would want to bond with us before really trusting us, liked to pull faces etc to, but were told she wouldn’t take it further.

She definitely does take it further with us. I’m finding her really tricky to handle on the ground. She barely wants to be touched - hates me picking up her feet, girthy, objects about rugs getting put on / taken off etc. She’s absolutely winning this battle of wills, and often I just walk away. There have been numerous unsuccessful attempts to bite, and more recently kicking out and swinging her hindquarters at us.

She was great under saddle to start with but has been nervous and silly on the few hacks we have managed recently. She’s getting very little work due to the dreadful weather conditions, but still. DS is a nice neat little rider but not confident and doesn’t cope well with the fizzy days.

She was essentially sold as a LR/FR, and I don’t feel she is - certainly not on the ground (I won’t let DS handle her at all now). She’s too forward under saddle for DS to feel really safe.

I’m not inexperienced (although not & never will be a brave gung ho type), and this is not our first or only pony. But I can’t see the woods for the trees and I just don’t know how long to persevere with her when things are only getting worse. I feel that as an adult I would be obliged to take responsibility for trying I make things right with a horse of my own, but DS is 8 and it feels unfair that a loving and committed little boy who is happy to spend hours every day at the yard doing every menial job under the sun has this pony who genuinely looks like she wants to kill us a lot of the time. My mum instincts are really kicking in now, and I just want to keep my child away from her.

Not sure what I’m asking... WWYD, maybe? I’m in touch with her previous owners who are open about having found her quirky initially, but also worked through it and clearly adored her. We’re just not “clicking”. I’m not sure that I could sell her on to another family home without being very honest either. She’s a talented little pony though - better than DS needs as he essentially wants to hack and do the more social parts of Pony Club, but has no great ambition.

Is 5 months too soon to give up? She has had really good days too (less lately), at times I’ve felt DS’s riding and really progressed with her (but overall he is losing confidence, even if he looks more refined), and sometimes, just sometimes, she’ll be incredibly sweet and I’ll feel like we have a base to work from. It’s not the overall feeling though.

She’s 18 so I don’t think much is going to change. Vet is booked to take a look over her later this week. I have no more time to give her, we are already at the yard (DIY livery) 2-3 hours every single day (over 2 visits), often much more. She will know by now that we are her caregivers!

Hand holding and / or constructive suggestions very welcome.

I'm glad you said you are getting the vet out, I'd ask them to look into ulcers, the girthiness, kicking out and general unhappiness about being handled suggests some kind of pain to me, and the fact she's recently-ish changed home, possible stress/anxiety related to that and change of herd etc, change of routine and possibly change of diet (even down to the fact different hay will be fed at your yard, even if you've kept any hard feed the same) can quite easily have set her off or perhaps exacerbated a pre-existing issue. I think recent vet research (albeit mainly focused on racehorses which is obviously very different to general leisure horses/ponies) suggests that a much greater proportion of the population have mild-moderate ulcers than previously thought, in particular hind gut ulcers which aren't easy to detect/diagnose. A lot of the symptoms e.g. mild grumpiness, aggression etc are likely to have been written off by handlers as simple behavioural/personality issues hence why it's not been known about until recent advances in vet technology.

That being said, persistent ulcers or indeed any kind of long-term pain/injury are quite difficult to treat and even if you do manage to improve the underlying cause the behaviour pattern may be ingrained esp if she's a little older. There's no shame in saying she may not be the right pony for you even if it's a simple 'not clicking' rather than anything the pony has done per se. Ponies are an expensive and time consuming hobby at the end of the day and if you and she just aren't there with the relationship she may be better off somewhere else. It's interesting you say she was sold as a LR/FR, it may be a personal bugbear of mine but I think that being a lead rein and being a first ridden are very different jobs and 90% of ponies are good at one or the other, not both. It's common for sellers to claim their pony will do any job under the sun, is a total saint etc - but in general I think a good true FR is probably a bit too forward going and sensitive to the rider to be a good lead rein esp for a nervous child whereas a good lead rein is a real plod and will take the vast majority of their cues about what to do from the handler not the child, which isn't really what you want from a FR, so unless the pony is unusually intelligent and able to 'switch' between the 2 modes they may get confused if asked to do both jobs on a regular basis. I know it's a bit tricky when you have a child right on the cusp of wanting to ride off lead rein when feeling confident but need the 'safety net' of needing to go back on at other times, and of course you should be able to do so but I do think it takes a bit of trial and error and 'schooling' of both pony and child to get that switch right, do you lunge him on her ever and how does that go? Is she better or worse on the lead rein compared to off out of interest?

So overall, I think I'd give the pony a little longer as 5 months esp through winter isn't very long, I'd give her a really thorough vet work up esp for the ulcers, maybe try a painkiller/bute trial and see if there's an improvement in her behaviour (if so there's def a pain issue), and then maybe enlist some pro help to work out what's going on. Does your DS have an instructor and what do they think if so? Is there a confident lightweight rider on your yard you can borrow to ride her a bit off lead-rein and see how she goes then? It might possibly be worth sending her off for a few weeks professional 'bootcamp'/schooling livery to try and sort out some of the ground issues and get her going nicely, whether ultimately you decide to keep her or sell on, she'll find a new home more easily if she can be shown working well and you'll know better how to market her (maybe as more a FR for a confident child or even a small 2nd ridden than a confidence giving LR into FR?)...

It sounds like ulcers to me they are agony and can make them really miserable.
That being said I wouldn’t have a pony that wasn’t safe enough for a child to handle at all, and I wouldn’t want them ruining my child’s confidence.
Is there a confident lightweight adult locally who can jump on (post vet check) for you?

My first thought too was ulcers (one of mine just been diagnosed - similar issues to your pony but nowhere near as bad).

If it turns out to be a veterinary issue after all then get that sorted and see where you go from there. I assume she's a very small pony as your child is only 8 but would agree with others who have suggested some professional schooling once the underlying issues (assuming that's the problem) have been sorted.

If the vet gives a clean bill of health, then try for the professional schooling straight away. These ponies are often very bright and quickly work out who's in charge, and she might just have worked out that her behaviour gets her out of having to work and turned back out in her field!

I think some sort of pain - agree ulcers sounds a likelihood.

Thanks all, this is helpful. I have wondered about ulcers from the day we got her - she has always been girthy. So glad that she is insured, I think I owe it to her to investigate this before making further decisions.
She’s a fine 12’2, so not for an adult unless very tiny, but we have competent light teenagers on the yard who I think would ride her for payment. Schooling livery does sound like a good idea though, whether we find a physical cause or not.
So tricky, I do want to what’s best for her as well as us.
maxelly she was mainly sold as a FR who would cope fine on the lead rein (previous owners had made this progression). She is similar on and off, as in can be forward and spooky regardless of whether she is being led. I feel she’s happier off lead in the school (she’s definitely not a lead rein pony who is struggling with being used as a first ridden - she likes to take cues from her rider). We have taken her to PC rallies both on and off lead (on lead with my younger child) and she managed on the lead rein, but was still slightly silly at points. As she is (under saddle) just now I’d describe her as heading towards second pony material.

And no to trying DS on the lunge - she is full on when lunged, I’m not sure what she’d do with a rider on, but just now it’s not a risk I’m willing to take (bucking, broncing, just working it all out of her system for the first 10 minutes....)

I’m not sure where you are in the country but I Know of a super lightweight adult who frequently takes on ponies for schooling.

@lastqueenofscotland I’ve PMd you

We had a mare who sounds exactly the same as yours. Ours was 21 when we got her,and within weeks she changed. She'd plant and refuse to be lead,it once took me 40 minutes to go 100 yards to bring her in. She'd rear in hand if you have her a snack,she'd bite and threaten to kick. Ridden she was fine,but there was no way I could let the children handle her.
I got a Monty Roberts trained lady to come and observe her,and she felt that she'd been unsettled and was putting herself in charge because she had no confidence that I or anyone else was in charge. ( I later met someone who'd known her years ago,and it was absolutely spot on. She'd been bought for a livery yard owners child,but then ended up with sharers,who were inexperienced and there was no routine in her life). I did some groundwork with her and we never looked back,she became the most wonderful pony,who my children did everything with,no more rearing, biting ect. She went on to successfully go to two loan homes,and I warned both of them what might happen,but apart from a little testing of boundaries,she never regressed. I lost her 3 years ago and miss her every day,she was perfect.

@TheFnozwhowasmirage what a lovely reassuring post! It would be great it we could work through this with her. Good to know that you had this level of success with an older pony. Natural horsemanship methods have served me well in the past, and professional help in this area is definitely something I’d consider.

We knew she was a bit quirky when we bought her, would want to bond with us before really trusting us

I do think all of the medical stuff is worth looking into, but this is giving me red flags.

Personally, I do think ponies tend to need firm boundaries, or they can start to take the mick. This can sometimes be insecurity- they want to know you know what you are doing. My concern is that you have been fairly soft with her- and this has led to her behaviour escalating.

If possible, I would tie her up (ideally outside the stable) every time you want to do something- whether that be rug changes, saddling, etc. This will hopefully stop her biting and make it a lot harder for her to threaten to kick. The more battles you "win", hopefully the more she will realise that she shouldn't behave the way she is.

What is her management like in general? How much turnout is she getting? Is she getting feed?

That said, for an 8YO who is not brave, I wouldn't buy a pony labelled as "quirky"- if you are able to move her on to a good, experienced home or return her to her old owners, and buy something else, I would seriously consider that. It is meant to be enjoyable, and he is at the sort of age where if it isn't enjoyable he will eventually lose interest.

This reminds me very much of one of my ponies. Absolute gem, strong and speedy but good in all ways, not spooky, no kicking, biting, nothing. She went out on loan after someone pleaded with me to have her. Few months in she was biting, threatening to kick, swinging her rump round, being "frightened" of the house pipe. All manner of things. She's very quickly cottoned on that they were very nice soft people and proceeded to exert her authority. I didn't think of myself as being particularly firm with her, she never seemed to need it but clearly they were not firm enough.

Thanks for the replies. I’m definitely not ruling out us being the problem!
She’s out (with a shelter and hay) 24/7 (I’ve occasionally stabled her on snowy nights for 8/9 hours). One very small feed a day to pop her supplements in.
It might just be that she needs firmer handling than we can offer. I’m really conscious that I’m not particularly strong with horses, and I don’t think I’ll ever change now! I’ve tended, both for myself and the kids, to keep our horses and ponies for years, until the bitter end - but there have been a couple (of my own horses) along the way who I haven’t bonded with and have sold on fairly quickly. I’ve found it so much harder trying to make a decision about a pony - we’ve been lucky so far and had / have a couple of real gems (and it did seem that this pony had proved to be just that for her last family) - but without needing to do anything “special” handling wise. My discipline generally extends to a sharp no and a tug on the lead rope - but beyond that I’m hesitant to get in to a battle.
Vet’s coming tomorrow now, so we’ll see what she thinks.

Any update? I'm hoping it is something easily resolved for all of you.🙂

Hello, no real update - thanks for asking. It’s been a dreadful week weather wise here so we haven’t even attempted riding, and only very minimal handling so it’s really hard to tell.
Vet couldn’t find anything obvious (but I didn’t expect her to). She offered to either book her in for a scope or trial bute first. After discussing it I’ve opted for bute. We’re only on day 5 - I do think she may be a little happier but time will tell. It’s not upsetting her tummy so far, which was my main worry. Will update if / when anything is found or a decision made. I just need a nice dry week now so that we can get a real baseline!

@ThatQuietOne

Thanks for the replies. I’m definitely not ruling out us being the problem! She’s out (with a shelter and hay) 24/7 (I’ve occasionally stabled her on snowy nights for 8/9 hours). One very small feed a day to pop her supplements in. It might just be that she needs firmer handling than we can offer. I’m really conscious that I’m not particularly strong with horses, and I don’t think I’ll ever change now! I’ve tended, both for myself and the kids, to keep our horses and ponies for years, until the bitter end - but there have been a couple (of my own horses) along the way who I haven’t bonded with and have sold on fairly quickly. I’ve found it so much harder trying to make a decision about a pony - we’ve been lucky so far and had / have a couple of real gems (and it did seem that this pony had proved to be just that for her last family) - but without needing to do anything “special” handling wise. My discipline generally extends to a sharp no and a tug on the lead rope - but beyond that I’m hesitant to get in to a battle. Vet’s coming tomorrow now, so we’ll see what she thinks.

I don't think it's about being strong as such- but just managing situations. So if I had a pony that was attempting to bite/kick me, I'd make sure they were always tied up short, in a space where I could get away as needed, but I would persevere with things I wanted to do, e.g. putting rugs on!

I don't know whether to hope the bute trial/scoping gives you answers or not! As obviously I don't want to wish health issues on your pony! But I hope you are able to figure things out, and come to a conclusion that suits everyone!

Thanks Sansa. Yes that is pretty much what I have been doing - she is always tied up short, and that has let me more or less ignore the attempts to bite etc. I haven’t really tried e.g. letting her meet my elbow when she tries this (partly because a friend ended up with a fractured radial head a couple of years ago when trying this with her horse - I was there and the memory hasn’t faded....). I also haven’t tried carrying a stick or giving her a physical reprimand - these don’t sit comfortably with me.
She’s clever though, and swinging her hindquarters round while kicking out did get me out of the way. I didn’t have much option other than to be cornered against a wall!! This behaviour does seem to be improving 🤞🏻. I have ignored many faces being pulled at me in the stable today (but only faces - not bad for her).

Have you tried some ground work, using your body language? Getting her to move away using your stance, etc?

Thanks ImFree. I’ve done a little, and make a point of moving her around the stable, asking her to back up etc. She’s fine with this. I’ve encouraged DS to take her for walks, halt, played with courses on the ground with poles etc - again she’s pretty cooperative. But in all honestly time is quite limited for a larger scale ground work project. I do think this would help her, but I need to decide whether she’s really the right pony for us & we should be the people putting in this time. I think if we did a tonne of groundwork for a month or so we’d have a good shot at improving the relationship, but right now I’d struggle to find the extra time - the children need to ride together so time spent on the ground with her means less riding time for my (younger) child and her pony (and we’re spending hours at the moment just dealing with mud / snow / hay / water....). If she’s still with us in spring when the days are longer then I’ll look into a more structured plan - it’s something I could do with her in the evenings.

Fingers crossed for some dry settled weather for you. My Mardy mare was better tied up with a haynet to distract her,and the lady who came out to me suggested using a grazing muzzle if I needed to. My mare would escalate if you smacked her,so a plastic bottle with pebbles inside to rattle if she was trying to bite/kick,and to startle her out of her bad behaviour was suggested,but as the haynet worked,I didn't ever try that.
I'm positive that you'll get there,it's just awful when you've got a new one and you don't yet know how they tick. I hate it. I'm supposed to be looking for a new horse each for the DDS after the pandemic,and I'm dreading the thought of it.

I love the plastic bottles with pebbles idea, going to try that. I have a feeling that mine would escalate quickly too with anything physical.

One thing worth mentioning is that she’s only ever made a serious attempt to bite when tied up. I feel that she feels claustrophobic and trapped. But at the same time, i don’t quite trust her enough not to tie her up to do feet, saddle etc (although I did used to just do rugs in the field and she was ok with that - pulled faces a bit but that was all).
I hate it too, the newness of it all. She’s not straightforward but I’d still like to work through it, or at least give it a good shot (if it does work we can keep her for years, for younger DD too, so it could be worth it). Decent weather would make such a difference - time to focus on a bit more than just keeping the ponies alive!!

It's certain a crappy time for it. The ground work worked wonders with my difficult Welsh. I need to invest done more time into it, as he's started being rather too "playful" in the field and I can't let my children in the field with him. Again, not sure when/if I'll get the time though.

She sounds really unhappy.
Presumably she has company. Teeth and saddle checked? Cut out all hard feed for a couple of weeks. She’s definitely eating the hay? No quidding?
Do you bring her in with company? Could she be nervous and insecure? Is she in a routine? Lots of horses prefer a routine.
Just some suggestions.
Try the horse and hound forum for more advice.

Any further improvement with the Bute OP? I guess with her not being ridden much atm it'll be hard to get a true picture on whether it's settled her down under saddle at all, as everything is super super fresh anyway right now?

I sympathise totally with the weather etc., I'm sure the DC are also less keen on riding/going to yard when it's like this which must also make it harder... When weather improves it might be worth getting a really good pro to come take a look at her, maybe one that specialises in ground work/natural horsemanship if that's your bag, if she's drastically better when handled differently then that at least would give you the confidence it's worth persisting (I still think it sounds as though there's some pain issues going on somewhere though)? Agree that H&H is a good place to ask for recommendations, avoid facebook as every man and his dog is a 'natural horsemanship expert' on there (or they are on my local one anyway!)...

It’s really hard to properly assess it as our weather has been so harsh (we are knee deep in snow now) but I actually do think she’s settling down with the bute (or change of pace - she’s just had a week off through circumstance). She’s now quite tolerant of me handling her, picking up her feet, changing rugs etc. Faces and a little tail swishing, but the attempts to bite & kick have stopped this week. I tacked her up this morning just to see what she would do, and she was very accepting of it.
She is more nervous around DS - he still gets the real face pulling.
I think given the weather I’m going to ask for an extra week of bute and then take her off it and see what happens. I’m fairly confident in her routine / feed / hay etc, there’s nothing I’d change there. She may be better turned out with a bigger herd (but that will be hard to arrange). I like the idea of a proper pro assessment - I just need to find someone I really trust & who isn’t gimmicky, but I think that the vet had a recommendation which I could follow up.
Going slowly in the right direction, I think.