Can we have a discussion about Oliver Townend?

[ArsenalsPlayingAtHome]

I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts are re his XC performance at Badminton?

Totally agree with you IsItTimeForGinYet, in fact it’s massively pissed me off that someone has set up a petition about mental health in my dressage group amidst fears for his feelings. How about giving a voice to the animals who give so much with such willingness and get beaten and whipped when it’s just not enough apparently.

Really conrider?! I’m pretty certain that Oliver Townend is not losing any sleep over his riding style, popularity or any FEI warnings!

He seemed to also wait until he thought the television cameras would be off him before hitting his horses.

I really don't think he was taking time out, in the middle of a 4* cross country course, trying to shave every possible second off his time, to consider where the cameras are, and whether he'd be in front of them at that moment

More likely, he was trying to sharpen his horses up (and make time) between fences, rather than taking their mind off their job during a complex combination of jumping efforts. Most of the cameras point at fences, because they're the interesting bits to show. Natural consequence...

Would you be happy to read in the papers tomorrow that OT had done something awful to himself, @cobrider? Would you feel that was appropriate justice, or retribution? I don't think that will happen, because I don't think he's likely to react in that manner, but with the sort of response on social media, and another rider, I think it would be a real possibility, and I would be horrified to see it (regardless of which rider they were, or my feelings on their conduct).

At the end of the day, the horses have, as far as any animal can, a voice - that's the FEI's warning, their inspection of them the next day (and any possible escalation had the horses actually suffered in any tangible manner), the response of the BHS, and every single armchair eventer person spouting their opinion on social media. Each one of those voices is - or claims to be - speaking on behalf of those horses - and that's good, within reason.

We should be compassionate towards our horses - within the boundaries of what is good for them. We should also be compassionate towards our fellow humans - not accepting their every action, but just remembering that they might be suffering now too.

Not taking time out no, but waiting until he was a good distance from the fence he had just jumped and then hitting his horse 3 times seems a little odd. A horse needs 3 over arm over the shoulder smacks to sharpen it up between fences? I will return your He has been verbally warned by the FEI at least 6 times for being hard on his horses and the cynical me thinks that yes he was hitting his horses at a decent distance from the fence to try and avoid any repercussions. Unfortunately people there saw it and went and complained and people watching on the telly also saw it.

The fact he was so arrogant about it at the time was a PR disaster for him, both on the Saturday and the Sunday. And the written apology on the Monday didn't come across very Oliver at all.

Of course I wouldn't want to hear that he had harmed himself in any way after such negative publicity but any person who has such high profile runs the risk of being under the public's scrutiny. He is the world number one. He should be someone people look up to. He is a brilliant rider and has come from nothing which in the expensive sport of eventing is also incredibly impressive but he has got a reputation for being harsh. With horses, with people. With his team mates even. After a disappointing WEG XC in 2014 he didn't hang around. He went back home, not staying to support his team mates. Harry Meade would have been forgiven for going back home after Wild Lone but did he? No. He stayed as it was the right thing to do.

Yes I am now an armchair eventer. But I used to event to a high level and have mates who were still competing there.

DiseasesOfTheSheep not really sure how you extrapolated all that from my post but if it makes you feel better about justifying his actions and minimising what he did, go ahead. I disagree with you about the animals having a voice and the extent of how any inspection can accurately assess ‘damage’ to them.
He has been doing this for years as have many others, clearly not enough has been done in the past and I am not sure what a warning will do on top of the others given.

I am afraid that my compassion is with the horses in this and vague accusations about my feelings should he do something are not going to guilt me in to saying otherwise.

No extrapolation, they were questions leading on from your post. Genuine questions as I find your lack of consideration for another human being concerning.

I'm not minimising either - it was a fairly trivial incident on the spectrum of welfare issues, because, yes, you can actually see if a horse has been harmed during an incident...

A horse needs 3 over arm over the shoulder smacks to sharpen it up between fences?

Of course not - I never said it was a constructive or appropriate manner of riding. In fact, I've repeatedly said it isn't. But I do think the idea of hitting a horse between fences to avoid cameras rather far-fetched, and I think it's much more likely that he was attempting to wake it up, and cover the ground between the fences as quickly as possible.

I cant support someone like him. Whether others can or not doesn't matter to me, I just can't follow someone who thinks it's fine to whip a horse for no reason. I get sometimes coming up to a jump you need to waken them up a bit, especially for a narrow fence, but when galloping? Why?

Would like to see him try and do that to my horse. He'd be decked before he realised what had happened. My horse does not take kindly to dominance, which might explain why based on what someone else said that I got nowhere using monty Roberts techniques on him.

DiseasesOfTheSheep I think that you are minimising it yes, similarly your swift dismissal of anyone who has concerns for horse welfare.
I am not really seeing how my contempt for someone hijacking mental health awareness week for someone who mistreats animals (recorded and warned previously) translates in to lack of concern for ‘another human being’ who you have said yourself has shown no suicidal intent.

It’s incredibly manipulative really (as is the petition).

I'm not minimising either - it was a fairly trivial incident on the spectrum of welfare issues, because, yes, you can actually see if a horse has been harmed during an incident...

Yes of course you can tell with the naked eye and naturally that would include psychological distress too. Or are you of the olds school brigade who doesn’t believe in that either?
I wouldn’t worry about Oliver, he has indestructible arrogance and contempt for most other humans and animals. The previous warnings did nothing to change his behaviour, he won’t suddenly develop compassion from this incident.

I disagree - clearly. I think you're being hysterical and misguided, about what is (genuinely) a trivial welfare issue, in the context of an obese leisure horse population, over-breeding, over-stocking, horses being abandoned, neglected and dying slow, painful deaths. In this incident, neither horse was injured - the most he can be accused of is setting a poor example, showing insufficient respect for his horses, and (possibly, though this is debatable) some degree of mental distress. There are many aspects of horse welfare I find concerning in this country - but this incident is way down the list. The majority of amateur horse owners do more harm to their own ponies through ignorance, apathy or incompetence.

You can continue to think I'm minimising - but your opinion is no more valid than mine, which is that you are over-dramatising a minor incident.

Yes of course you can tell with the naked eye and naturally that would include psychological distress too. Or are you of the olds school brigade who doesn’t believe in that either

You can see significant physical damage with the naked eye, yes - inflammation is certainly visible or palpable in most cases. Many aspects of psychological distress are visible to the naked eye, with various markers in facial expression etc. Other aspects are less visible, certainly.

Don't make assumptions - you know nothing about my background.

I am happy to disagree with you, as do lots of others on this thread. Once we start trying to minimise cruelty by comparing it to allegedly worse cases, it’s a lost cause, especially when it’s someone so high profile.
The hysteria comes in when people use phrases such as ‘witch hunt’ to garner sympathy for someone who has had multiple warnings in the past.

Don't make assumptions - you know nothing about my background

And I am not interested in your background either. It’s irelevent to any of this, anyone trying to pull rank in a situation like this should be laughed out of any debate.

See and I think the focus of this debate on Oliver - is a red herring. I have never liked his riding, and I think he was right to be sanctioned...... but the furore over this, when we can't get the horse world motivated to really take on the FEI over endurance in the Middle East (smacks of corruption)- horses suffering catastrophic breaks to legs during FEI races...... Rolkur openly practiced in warm up at international competition- and when a top level coach speaks out about it - he is sanctioned by the FEI.....
or really taking in the police to apply the law around welfare to the parts of the traveller community....... now that's what we should all be activists about

So because there are worse things happening elsewhere in the world, we shouldn't condemn oliver for giving his horses a few bloody good wallops for no reason?

So because there are worse things happening elsewhere in the world, we shouldn't condemn oliver for giving his horses a few bloody good wallops for no reason?

I don't see these as clearly separate issues. We often treat horses more as objects to do our bidding than as sentient beings who didn't actually ask to be owned by us. So Oliver hits horses to get them over large fences and round a course more quickly. The FEI fails to act when endurance horses are pushed until they quite literally break. Amateur owners don't find out anything like as much as they should before taking on the responsibility of a horse. At root, we're not putting the horses first, but our own needs.

The FEI rank Townend as no. 1 rider in the world for eventing. Given that means he has expertise in three disciplines, shouldn't we all be scrambling to have him ride our horses? And yet many knowledgeable owners don't want him near their animals. There's something very wrong here. So whilst hitting a horse to get it over a fence is far from the worst thing one can do, I do not view it in isolation. Instead, I see it as behaviour that is enabled and encouraged by our current system of ownership and competition. If we can tackle this, we can start to make a series of changes which could then ripple outwards so that we stop pushing endurance horses so much and become more genuinely knowledgeable about all the horses in our care.

I am not condoning his actions - but there has been a huge amount of vitriol directed at him in the last couple of weeks - but there is so much other - much worse abuse that goes on, right under our noses - that very few can be bothered trying to stop.

Everyone is focused on the person, not the system that allows this to continue.....

The issue is not Oliver- the issue is the FEI - which I think at some stage we will all discover is as corrupt as FIFA.......

Rather than spending hours bitching about him - work out how to change the FEI which controls the sport at this level, and allows this to continue

Well the issue is Oliver. He's the one responsible for his own actions, whether they were enabled or not.