Can we have a discussion about Oliver Townend?

[ArsenalsPlayingAtHome]

I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts are re his XC performance at Badminton?

For anyone who isn't aware - he was given an official verbal warning for overuse of the whip at Badminton, and has been dropped by two of his sponsors. The BHS is referring the case to the FEI.

Personally, I think a verbal warning, is not harsh enough. I feel the horses have been let down not only by him, but also by the powers that be, and that it isn't sending a loud and clear enough lesson.

However, as I understand it, there is still a huge amount of support for him.

Is there a video we can see?

I heard that this related to two horses. Now one horse maybe a bit of over enthusiastic use could be let go, but on two horses? Makes you wonder what goes on at home if he can do this in public.

Having said that, I haven't seen footage and maybe my opinion would change once seen.

I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

Thanks Fire - two horses, yes you're right, I've thought what you've said.

I haven't seen it either, have tried to find it but couldn't, I was glad in a way because it would be awful to see it.

I have friends who were there, but obviously they only got a fleeting glimpse and see maybe a few seconds at most.

His apology was shoddy..a sort of sorry for how bad it looked as opposed to sorry that I over whipped my exhausted horses, when they were doing the best they could.

Claire Balding apparently referred to it in an interview too, which DH has seen. He said he came across as arrogant. I'm going to watch that later, as I haven't been able to find that either.

I'm so pleased that the BHS hasn't let it go.

Riders at this level have an increased responsibility as they are role models and should also be setting an example for the next generation coming through our sport. The behaviour displayed by Oliver Townend was completely unacceptable. We strongly believe that the sanctions given to Mr Townend by the FEI were not high enough in this particular case. The British Horse Society will be raising these concerns to the FEI.”

Above is part of the official statement on the BHS website.

Given how both jumped the next day, were they really that exhausted? Sam (Michael Jung's horse) looked worse in the SJ!

Wasn't pretty riding but I'd much rather see that than winging it over the last fence and having a rotational fall - for all the whip waving (which most of it was) he set both up for the fences properly while going for the time.

No witch hunting from me

The BHS don't usually come out strongly like this do they?
Badminton is prominent so maybe that's why they're coming down so hard. This kind of thing is pretty inexcusable though from a professional & role model.

randoms do you think the verbal warning was justified then, or maybe a bit harsh?

Verbal warning was fine - I suspect that it would have been upgraded had either horse come out lame or looking tired the next day...

What something looks like and how the horse feels aren't necessarily the same.

I'd much rather see what Ollie did than the horse that sprawled all over the corner and had a nasty fall!

I think if you want to discuss it, you'd be better off watching it. There are some clips on Facebook, if you search on "oliver townend badminton cross country". The commentators were discussing the use of the whip during his round and saying the ground jury would have to discuss it. It's a lot more than waving the whip around. You can hear its use repeatedly and clearly. It's not just over the last fence or two - it's repeatedly over several fences and in between fences.

Having watched it, whilst I appreciate that he is a skilled rider, I wouldn't let him on any horse of mine. I wonder how he would have ridden had he not been in with a chance of the Rolex Grand Slam. It isn't a choice between hitting a horse and having it sprawl over a fence. That's a false binary. If a horse is that tired you're clouting it to get it round, you can just pull up. That he didn't suggests to me that he and the horses' owners don't prioritise the horses. And yes, I know they're fit and well and have large amounts of money spent on them.

I wouldn't hound him, or ask sponsors to drop him. I do think it needed addressing and I do think we need to discuss what we're asking of horses.

Personally, I'm very disappointed in the BHS for supporting the absurd response on social media. Given that Oliver Townend's horses were inspected prior to the showjumping, deemed fit to continue, and went on to jump well, I struggle to see how his behaviour can be considered abusive or of significant detriment to their welfare (at least, no more so than any other high level equestrian support).

That's not to say that I think he got it right - I can completely understand the verbal warning, and it strikes me as being a proportionate and sensible response. It wasn't particularly pleasant viewing, but I don't think his horses were under noticably more duress than many others which finished tired - and, indeed, I think they were a lot better prepared for their exertions than some others there.

I feel there's a very strong personal element to this, which devalues the argument against him - he should be held accountable for his actions, not for people's opinions of him as a person. I think that trial by social media is unhelpful and detrimental to the sport in general, and I'm disappointed to see that a couple of his sponsors have responded to that pressure (though others are standing by him, some rather vociferously!).

Neither is a good outcome, both should be punished equally - verbal warning was a good holding response and I suspect in a 1 day (XC last) would have been a yellow card but as the Grand Jury had the trot up next day and SJ to assess how hard the horses had been pushed it was the most appropriate response - had the horses failed the trot up or jumped looking tired the Grand Jury could have increased the punishment.

As it was the evidence suggests that the horses weren't pushed excessively (SJ looked better than many other horses where there was no controversy).

A lot of horses finished looking very tired.. ground plus weather was not a good combination!

I'm not a OT fan, but the current witch hunt is not justified.

Oliver Townend always comes across as quite a ‘hard’ rider. Which doesn’t make him very likeable. I can’t see what he did as being any worse than using a stick in a horse race. It’s just not seen as much in eventing so isn’t palatable (if that’s the right word?) to that audience.

I think the BHS have got involved because they were charity of the year at Badminton this time. They probably feel they have a duty to comment as their profile was higher than normal this year.

I forgot they were the charity this year.

I don't like Oli as a rider. i am speaking from experience,not just watching him on TV. He is exceptionally hard on the horses and prioritises winning over their welfare. I think it is right he is being made to pay for his actions. His apology was a PR stunt. I don't see why he should be allowed to paste a horse, after it's cleared a fence, while exhausted, then just because it isn't lame the next day somehow that makes it not as bad?

We have to ask ourselves if a young rider did this to their pony how would we feel? Yes he is competing at the highest level, but most people are sounding a high level for them. He should be a role model but sadlty he isn't.

I can’t see what he did as being any worse than using a stick in a horse race

If it had been in a horse race he would have been restricted to using it 9 times in a jump race and it would have had to be an energy-absorbing whip ( www.thepja.co.uk/members-info/regulatory/useofwhip/ ). British Horse Racing actually seems to be much more specific about the use of the whip than British Eventing, although obviously they do have rules for its use.

I have never been an OT fan, in part because I think he is ungainly, though he has got better. He is not the worst of the horse abusers, open secret who is ( notorious for punching them up like prizefighters in the horsebox after if he was displeased with their performance). At his peak, Fox-Pitt was enormously effective as a rider whilst being sympathetic to the horse ( remember 2012 Olympics where his horse ran out of puff, no beating from William). Yes, OT did not injure his horses, but he has an approach to riding which should not be rewarded. If that style can be disincentivised somehow, I bet women would start winning Badminton more consistently. Saw some great rides from the females! (I was there)

In the clip i saw, he picked up his stick and gave his horse three hard smacks in the galloping section for no reason whatsoever.

He had a reputation for riding in this style and there was a lot of bad feeling about him, but he's turned it round over the past few years. He was very emotional about his reputation in an interview with CB I recall a couple of years back at Badminton. I think his warning should suffice.

I don’t like him as a rider either and was really disappointed to see that justified criticism of him was described on social media as a ‘witchhunt’. The welfare of horses is still not taken seriously enough here and I think that he got off lightly, he has been doing this (and more) for years.

The grey definitely looked like it was getting tired so whipping it repeatedly is to my mind wrong and you have to ask yourself what message does this send out.

It isn't a choice between hitting a horse and having it sprawl over a fence. That's a false binary. If a horse is that tired you're clouting it to get it round, you can just pull up. That he didn't suggests to me that he and the horses' owners don't prioritise the horses.

^This.

Gabilan I've tried. It didn't bring up this year's XC. I know ideally I should have watched it, but I know that many people on here will have seen it & will be more informed, which is why I'm interested in peoples' opinions. I'll keep trying, it must be there somehwere!

Moanranger it's horrible to read that. Personally I don't know who that could be, unless it was someone with a last name beginning with W back in the day.

Obviously you can't name them, but WTAF?