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The tack room

Discuss horse riding and ownership on our Horse forum.

Can we have a discussion about Oliver Townend?

69 replies

ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 12/05/2018 07:34

I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts are re his XC performance at Badminton?

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ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 09:05

It's not a witch hunt...the term witch hunt refers to people who are being hunted down for something they haven't actually done.

The fact that he has accepted the verbal warning, clearly suggests that he is well aware that his use of the whip was unacceptable.

Let's stop using the word witch hunt.

Let's call it what it is - freedom of speech by people expressing disappointment, concern and disbelief in a top rider's failure to put the horses' welfare before his own determination to win at any cost.

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ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 09:06

That doesn't mean everyone has to agree - just that it's wrong to suggest that poor Oliver Townend is the victim here, when clearly he is the perpetrator!

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MissStegosaurus · 13/05/2018 09:08

I agree with pp if he's doing that in public, what's he doing at home?

Gabilan · 13/05/2018 09:10

Arsenals I found a clip posted by someone called "Jenny Sheppard".

I know there are worse things you can do to a horse and I know it's part and parcel of competing at this level, that you ask horses to do something they don't necessarily want to do (and yes, you can make a horse do something it doesn't want to do). So for me that raises questions about why we use them in this way.

I've recently had to make a decision about (semi) retiring my horse due to injury and a huge part of that decision was me thinking "well he's not keen on schooling anyway, so lets just not school". I mean sure, he'll do it and produce lovely work, but he's not enthusiastic and I end up using a schooling whip far more than I'd like. As I've got older, and less tied to conventional ideas of what we "should" do with horses, I've become more inclined to think "fuck it, if you don't really want to, why should you". It's not to say I'd let a large animal take charge and walk all over me, but I'm much more horse-centred and inclined to think "if I need to hit you, do we really need to be doing this at all?"

ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 09:19

It makes total sense, what you're saying, Gabilan.

I was asking my DH about whips - can't they just ban them? He explained why there is sometimes a need for them..and it did sort of make sense, but I'm still not convinced.

DD aged 10 (riding for 4 years) has never used one and doesn't have one yet, but probably use one at some point.

Your approach sounds great from where I'm sitting, but I don't know much if I'm honest!

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gg5891 · 13/05/2018 09:25

He came across very badly afterwards, he hadn't watched it back or had time to rehearse too much and he said something along the lines of sometimes I win pretty sometimes I win ugly but I ride to win - paraphrasing- which to me showed a complete disregard for the welfare of his animals. If it was a pony club event or young riders event it wouldn't be tolerated so why was it for him. He may not have won but he walked away with a decent amount of prize money so what difference did the verbal warning make?!

Gabilan · 13/05/2018 09:42

Arsenal, mine is far from a traditional approach and would be criticised by many. It is gaining some ground, and other people go much further than I do, questioning whether we should ride at all. I just hope that the kind of discussions now taking place in the horse world have a good outcome for the horses!

Cobrider · 13/05/2018 11:14

Gabilan the owner of my dd2 riding school is heading towards your way of thinking too, which I am really pleased about. She says that as she has got older she is getting better results with working with the horse rather than dominating it. I feel much more comfortable with that too.
FB depresses me at the moment, the old school brigade who won’t tolerate any mistakes and sometimes refuse to even consider that the horse behaviour might be due to pain/boredom/tiredness.

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 13/05/2018 13:50

That doesn't mean everyone has to agree - just that it's wrong to suggest that poor Oliver Townend is the victim here, when clearly he is the perpetrator!

Well, to be fair, there are two separate issues - OT is certainly the perpetrator in his over-use of the whip - which he has accepted. His conduct was far from ideal, and it's not something anyone wants to see (though I dispute it is a welfare issue to hit a horse - even a tired one, not that I think his horses were excessively tired - provided it is transient, and doesn't mark or injury the horse beyond the moment).

The social media response has been disproportionate, and at times, really rather nasty far beyond people stating that they didn't like his actions. OT is a victim of that, although it's part and parcel of being in the public eye. Some of the posts I've seen on social media have been threatening and abusive, and I don't consider that acceptable.

ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 13:53

Gabilan, are there any books you can recommend on this? I'm interested & keen to learn more.

I know from listening & watching what's going on around me that a gentle acceptance & respect of the horse's needs and state of mind (as far as we are able to make an educated guess at what that is) can reap real rewards & enhance mutual trust.

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ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 14:00

Diseases I haven't seen those posts, but agree with you that OT doesn't deserve threats or abuse.

At least he is able to not read such posts though, unlike the horses, who had no choice but to endure whatever punishment he thought was acceptable at the time.

I really do not understand what the point of a verbal warning is. In this situation, when what he's already done can not be undone, and the upshot of that is that two of his horses were mistreated, what does a verbal warning achieve?

Nothing.

Just a message to him & everyone else that you won't actually be punished, but that you might lose your popularity with fans, & some sponsors might drop you, but others won't.

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Sparrowlegs248 · 13/05/2018 14:03

The horse I saw did look very tired. He did indeed o we use the whip and was an arrogant arsehole in his interview with Clare Balding. .

I think any co sequences he's faced are entirely justified

Sparrowlegs248 · 13/05/2018 14:08

That said I think some of the social media reaction has been vile. I CAN understand how OT may have felt pressure to perform, caught up in the moment etc. I can understand how you might be heading to a large solid fence and need to use the whip. But two different horses and I think his interview after is what I object to most. Cocky and arrogant and not at all bothered until he realised (and his pr person realised) how damaging it would be .

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 13/05/2018 14:30

I really do not understand what the point of a verbal warning is. In this situation, when what he's already done can not be undone, and the upshot of that is that two of his horses were mistreated, what does a verbal warning achieve?

The verbal warning is part of the FEI's process, which is applied unilaterally across the entire field. His horses were inspected the following day for any consequences of his actions - had there been consequences, the FEI would've - most likely - responded with an appropriate escalation of the verbal warning. If he collects further verbal warnings, the FEI will escalate matters in accordance with their procedure. This would likely involve suspension from competition for a period of time - and all of the tangible losses associated with that.

For me, the important thing about this is that it isn't a personal response because he's not popular, but a universally applied, dispassionate process, which is laid out in advance, and determined by the officials with access to all of the relevant information.

Gabilan · 13/05/2018 15:23

Arsenal look up Meadow Family Rescue, Epona TV and the work of Lucy Rees, an equine ethologist. They're all moving away from dominance models towards a more horse-centred understanding. Be wary of Kelly Marks and Monty Roberts - they tend much more to dominance, despite the rhetoric of "natural horsemanship".

the important thing about this is that it isn't a personal response because he's not popular, but a universally applied, dispassionate process, which is laid out in advance, and determined by the officials with access to all of the relevant information.

Agree with that. It's got to be a fair system. And no-one should have to put up with death threats via social media. Sometimes the response is far worse than the actual crime.

I had a lovely ride out today on a horse who was clearly thoroughly enjoying exploring the countryside. We had a great time - ideal riding weather as it was sunny but fairly cool, and flies haven't started yet. But there was no competitive element, no money involved, no need to do anything really other than have fun together.

IMO the problems which are occurring are happening because in western Europe and in America and Canada horses are passing from being working animals to being leisure animals. So we are starting to ask, hang on, should we really be pushing them like this? Do we need to treat them like cogs in a machine? Do we need to manipulate them into doing things they don't really want to do? In the meantime, I'd like to see more riders like Jonelle Price. And I applaud Andrew Nicholson's decision not to push Nereo but to retire him from top-level competition.

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 13/05/2018 16:12

The issue of pushing horses into sports is an interesting one - it's one I've had a few times lately (before the OT business kicked off!).

It's complicated because horses are designed to work - that is, they're designed to cover large distances every day. They're not designed to carry people at all - there are significant biomechanic consequences. So the extreme answer is that we shouldn't have them at all if we insist on riding them, and (/or) keeping them in relatively confined spaces...

Except that horses live longer (on average) in captivity, than in the wild - so perhaps the benefits outweigh the downsides, and, by extension, it's arguably ok to keep them. But then how much do you work them - how far is it ok to say "I want you to let me ride you and work you" - given that the horse, by choice, would mostly rather be in the field eating. Leaving the horse in the field to eat - according to its basic desire, you dramatically increase the risks of obesity and related conditions, metabolic issues, laminitis - hugely deleterious for the welfare of the horse.

But if you work it, sooner or later, you'll have to apply some pressure - to respond when you say "stop here" but the pony wants to keep going, or you ask it to go past the scary car, which the pony thinks is going to eat it. You could back down every time - but the risk of ending up with a dangerous animal (or, with a native pony-type, just an overweight, lazy one!) dramatically increases.

Even those who practice "soft" training methods put pressure on their horses - some openly, some less openly, some apply physical pressure, some psychological. I'm of the opinion that the psychological pressure is often worse for the horse than the physical - but that's a matter of opinion. The Parellis and Monty Roberts are relevant here - at various times, these have been considered the softer, natural approaches, but are, in reality, anything but.

There isn't really a clear answer to what's ideal in managing horses. Quiet hacks are lovely, on a nice day - but it's just another type of risk, looking at the roads today and the number of horses hurt on them - and how far is that work sufficient for a horse (for some, it's plenty, for others, it's not enough to manage their weight without starving them!).

Certainly, the human desire to push them to the extremes of their capabilities in sport isn't ideal for welfare - the whole concept carries inherent danger to the horse - huge, solid xc fences, hideous dressage training practices... But are there similar risks, similar injuries at lower levels, due to rider competence, or horse suitability issues? Where do you draw the line on what's an acceptable risk to the horse, and what's acceptable pressure to apply on a horse, for its own sake?

These are all hugely interesting questions, and issues facing horse owners in the modern world. We have huge problems with the movement towards leisure horses, who work less and are often fed more (feed company marketing!) and stabled too much or grazed on rich pastures. If I were feeling contentious, I might suggest that "kindness" to horses is the biggest welfare problem in the UK right now - but I don't want people to think I mean that cruelty, or unkindness would be preferable. All I mean is that there is a middle ground - that sometimes pushing a horse to do something it's not too keen on, or is approaching its limits, isn't the worst thing you can do.

That's not to say that I'm defending over-use of the whip in any circumstance. I'm defending the concept of carrying one, the concept of appropriately using one - or, indeed, any other means of applying pressure - legs, spurs, bits, bitless, carrot sticks, psychological pressures - all of which are just different tools for the same job - getting the horse to do something we want it to, and it doesn't.

Pebblespony · 13/05/2018 17:50

@diseasesofthesheep Very interesting post.

Moanranger · 13/05/2018 18:13

Diseases In the competition world, the issue is simpler. I know horses are competed too much, too hard & too young. I part-owned a 5YO event horse that I sold that was eventually ridden by one of the Badminton riders at lower levels. It competed too much, got injured, competed some more & had a drastic injury & was put down at 11 after Tweseldown. I read it’s competition history & it broke my heart. If I had still owned it, I would never have allowed it to compete that much, but it’s subsequent owner wanted the wins at all costs. I got out of the 5YO game.
Arsenal the horse abuser is v well-known, all I can say.
Re AN retiring Nereo, don’t think welfare came into his decision; more that he was unlikely to place. Quite common for top riders to pull out if there scores after two phases mean they are out of the ribbons.

DiseasesOfTheSheep · 13/05/2018 18:19

If there's one aspect of the competition world I really dislike, it's age classes and the pressure to get young horses out doing too much, too young. I just don't see the point - and I'm not a big fan of racing young, or the very early backing you see in the states either.

ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 19:52

Ooh you're a knowledgeable bunch!

Thanks for all your experiences, insights and wisdom. Moanranger how awful for you to have read that about a horse you have known and loved Sad.

I don't know what to think, and need to read everything again.

It's all making me feel very uneasy. We have a very friendly foal here - absolutely adorable & so trusting of us all. I feel a huge responsibility to get things right, for it not to be rushed and stressed and pressured. But as Diseases has pointed out, the very fact that we have horses at all means that it's unavoidable.

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ArsenalsPlayingAtHome · 13/05/2018 19:53

Gabilan thank you - I will certainly look those up.

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DiseasesOfTheSheep · 13/05/2018 22:17

I feel a huge responsibility to get things right, for it not to be rushed and stressed and pressured.

I would say that rushing a horse is - and should be - entirely avoidable. Stress and pressure are a part of life, for all species, in the wild and in captivity, so I don't think we should strive to avoid them entirely.

That said, we can moderate it, and, within reason, try to make sure that the pressure we apply is proportionate, fair and understandable to the horse. Training should be about giving the horse the tools to understand and handle stress and pressure in its life, and respond appropriately.

I think that, generally, if horses are trained with that in mind - applying fair pressure, with clarity and consistency, so that the horse knows what is expected of it, is given every chance to respond, and treated with proper consideration and, if necessary, investigation if it routinely fails to respond appropriately - it's probably alright.

Training, raising and owning horses is a huge responsibility though - and I don't think this side of that responsibility is always considered thoroughly enough.

randomsabreuse · 14/05/2018 07:19

Training a horse to stand for relatively unpleasant things is necessary- picking out feet, fly spray, oral medication. Vets and farriers are more likely to be injured by barely ridden leisure horses than fired up fit competition horses...

Pebblespony · 15/05/2018 21:07

It's not just top flight competitions either. Every show during the summer will see an adult standing beside a warm up jump and getting a child to put their pony over it again and again. Drives me mad. I'm a ring steward and I always hate this 'schooling in public'. Bloody pony is worn out by the time it gets to the ring.

IsItTimeForGinYet · 16/05/2018 22:18

Only just found this...

In my opinion (not worth much!) OT is incredibly hard on his horses. Yes they go well and yes they perform. However he has had a few warnings from the FEI - verbal warnings for both horses at badminton this year, last May at Floors castle again for "abuse of horse/inappropriate use of whip and he had 2 more in 2014 which included another Badminton warning for use of spurs and whip. It keeps happening. (There are others but can't find them).

He said how hard it was for him getting two inexperienced horses round their first Badminton but he was very hard on them. He seemed to also wait until he thought the television cameras would be off him before hitting his horses. It's quite common to give a horse a smack on approach or landing if they need waking up but he was waiting a good distance from the fence before smacking them hard a number of times.

He rode a horse of mine which I had sold a number of years ago and I was very glad they only did a few competitions together. He certainly wouldn't be someone I would want to send my nice young horse to now, especially if hitting them continuously round their first track of that level is how he goes about it.

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