Morale boosting thread for those with new or tricky horses

[bandito]

I thought it would be nice (for me certainly ) to share some of the ups and downs of life with a new or tricky horse. I've had DHorse for 2 weeks - he's our first after years and years of riding school riding and I've managed to fall off twice in that fortnight. He's just jumped sideways at a scary hedge on his brand new hacking route and off I fall. I failed both times to hold on the reins and the darling stood still and waited for me to come and get him. He's a sweetheart but I am realising very quickly that moving a horse across the country and handing him over to a novice rider is going to have a few issues in the first year! On the bright side, he comes to call and stops when you say whoa. We're going to have fun together - but in all honesty, we aren't yet. Is anyone else in the same boat?

I'm no expert bandito but I am going through exactly the same journey and always happy to offer support. That's fab that he settled and don't you dare worry about donning that full kit - when I have groundwork lessons my instructor makes me wear it all and I never go without my back protector now.

Rode my boy in the school tonight but it was blowy so he was pretty tight, spooky and wired. Had a bit of bunny hopping and bucking when some of the mares were turned out alongside us but I sat quietly and then when he paused he got a firm kick and a growl and off we went again. I think a pp said it's getting to know their triggers. I never thought I'd be calmly growling at a horse spooking at every thing that moves! But it seems to be a bit different when you know them? Just need to get over the going out alone hurdle.

As bandito said it was my yard owner who took some slightly strange risks with mine... But I am too doing some of the alpha horse stuff. With maybe a 50:50 success rate baby steps....

I wear my hat at all times around horses. I've had more accidents handling than riding so it's only sensible to reduce the risk of injury.

Hat and gloves are essential for lunging in my opinion. The body protector never hurt anyone so why not wear especially if he is prone to kicking about.

What my YO means by the term 'alpha horse' YoureSoSly is me learning to show with my voice and body language that I am calm, confident and competent, that I choose to let him into my space so that eventually he will look to me for safety when we are out and about. My character is not naturally like this, so I find I am having to think about my body language all the time. I thought this was a good thing?

Calm and confident body language is good, yes. But the idea of letting the horse into your space sounds like some of the more dubious parts of natural horsemanship. Also, ideas about "alpha" and dominant horses are based on human assessments of equine behaviour that some behaviourists increasingly dislike. There are sometimes dominant behaviours, generally in situations that are unnatural. In more natural environments there are few or no signs that horses have a dominance hierarchy or that particular individuals are dominant (as opposed to many horses sometimes showing behaviour interpreted as dominant).

I'll see if I can find some links.

Here's one link epona.tv/blog/2014/october/round-and-round-we-go

I think this is a useful summary too goodhorsemanship.ca/dominant-horse/#sthash.JLXn0sUr.dpbs

Thanks for the links Gabilan, I have looked at them - I am just trying to get to a point where I am happy to sit on my horse again and he retains the manners that I bought him with, rather than becoming bargy and rude because I don't have the confidence to handle him properly. That's all I am after right now. By choosing to let him into my space, I meant that it's my choice how close we get, rather than his. I appreciate there is a lifetime of learning here and I am at the start of the journey.

Bandito - if it works and you're going in the right direction that's the important thing.

I think it must be so confusing for horses. You just can't explain to them what being sold means. It's just that suddenly they're in a new environment with people and horses they don't know. It's not surprising they change!

Natural Horsemanship, like the Monty Roberts stuff back in the day seems to be very "in" lately but a lot of both techniques seem to be very based on negative reinforcement. I'm not a fan.

Ooh good links Gabilan! 👍🏻

For what it's worth, in my experience, horses are very complicated creatures, much more than dogs for example. I have a long adjustment period with any new horse, not just because it takes time to figure out what scares them, what winds them up, etc. but because it takes time to figure out what reassures them, what calms them, etc.

I've had horses which faced with something worrying just needed a moment with no pressure to think things through and were willing to be brave with a pat from the rider, horses that needed an immediate sharp (not necessarily painful but startling) slap to get them through otherwise their panic would take over and they would escalate things, horses that fell to pieces at a growl from the rider and became dangerous in their uncertainty (e.g. if worried climb on rider seemed to have been one horse's thinking!), etc. Experienced horsepeople can assess a horse's needs quickly and react appropriately, the rest of us muddle through, learning from our mistakes and then hopefully building a relationship with that animal.

Hang in there!!! New horses will stretch and grow your character like nothing else on earth :) Just be realistic about things and forget the fantasy of gorgeous perfect rides every day - some will be horrible but there will be good bits too. I have spent three years getting to grips with my young horse and have honestly despaired at times but with the help of instructor and friends have pushed through and now we feel like we are actually getting somewhere . . . give yourself a break and be kind to yourself, its tough when youre afraid and nervous but challenging yourself in a sensible way means you will discover strenghts about yourslef you never knew were there. Get lots of help and make yourself do something every single day, even if its just walking around the school. Then the next day a little more - even half a loop etc. And make sure they get enough work, there is no better recipe for disaster than a fresh horse and a nervous new rider :) Ask for help!!! People understand your struggles as most have gone through it themsleves!!! Good luck :)

Slightly off topic but the links Gabilan posted led me to other articles about Natural Horsemanship/Parelli stuff and I'm shocked at how violent a lot of it is. Disgusting. It would seem that the likes of Parelli/Roberts et al are the Cesar Millans of the horse world 😡

I was interested in the links as my instructor has done some groundwork with me and my boy with a dually and a heavy lead rope. She taught me to snake shake the rope and escalate the shaking very quickly if he didn't back up or stop as asked. It culminated in him upping his resistance to the point of rearing continually at her for about 5 mins and they had a bit of a stand off. She won and he started doing as asked but have had a few debates with other liveries who were a bit shocked. He is cheeky and she says he needed it to be put in his place in the herd. I am still unsure. Not something I could do but she is a very experienced and well-respected instructor and rider.

she says he needed it to be put in his place in the herd

They've evolved over millions of years to cooperate with each other. Their survival depends on this. Humans on the other hand are quite aggressive and territorial primates with hierarchies. I think there are times when you need to make it clear to a horse that actually, no, I'd rather you didn't stand on me. But personally I've had more success doing this whilst bearing in mind they are basically cooperative than by assuming they need "putting in their place", wherever that is.

E.g. when I put my horse's bridle on, I often have him on the yard. There's generally a moment when he has reins around his neck but doesn't have the bit in his mouth when he'll often wander. I can have a huge argument about this. Or, I can let him move a couple of meters into the sun and stand where he can see his mates whilst I put his bridle on. The first is confrontational and although he would stand quietly if I forced the issue, I don't then feel I'm bonding. The second makes us both happy.

But I've had him four years and we're starting to know each other's quirks. They are complex animals and it takes time with all of them. Personally, I wouldn't let someone wave a rope around until a horse rears. I just don't get it.

It took me a couple of days to shake it off to be honest. I am just tired of being told "he has to see you as a leader, you can't let him get away with anything."

The way I look at it. my horse weighs around 650kg whereas I weigh about 60kg. He can gallop at 30mph whereas I can run at about 10mph on a good day. Therefore, if he didn't like me and want me around, I wouldn't be able to get near him in the first place. He cooperates with me because he likes me and he's a cooperative animal. So being confrontational with him is just going to beget confrontation, which isn't necessary.

There are times when I'm very firm with him and actually he likes the reassurance of knowing very clearly what I expect of him. But quite a lot of the time we just chill out as mates. He does what I ask because he's quite obliging. And I don't ask him to do stupid shit.

That sounds spot on Gabilan.

Thanks Puppymouse. I freely admit to making mistakes though, I just hope I don't repeat the same ones but instead find new and interesting ways to fuck up each time

It's so difficult to find experts to help you out. How do you decide if the expert is right? Dhorse was trying for months to tell me his saddle wasn't right but it was fitted by a Master Saddle Fitting Consultant so I completely misread the signs. In the end though, my horse is going to know far better than any saddle fitter, however well qualified, whether or not his saddle fits. So when I'm picking an expert, I have to pay careful attention to what DHorse is telling me.

The problem was picked up as part of his regular back checks. There's a really nice bond between Dhorse and his physio so for now at least I figure I can trust her!

My new horse (well I've had him 6 months now, but still feels new) was very "in my face" when I first got him - when I went to put his bridle on he'd rub and push at you, he'd stick his head up in the air, and leading him was a nightmare, it was more a case of him towing me where he wanted to go.

I had a NH chap come out to help me with loading as horse was extremely difficult (he is now a million times better) and he gave me a few pointers to the handling issue including the shaking rope, although not to the extent that your YO seems to have done Puppymouse, it was more of a flick from the wrist and didn't jerk the headcollar or anything. I have to say it works a treat, as does the not holding the rope right up by the headcollar and not standing in his space. If he's a bit bargy and opinionated I shake the rope, we do a bit of stop/start until he's with me and then off we go. Having started leading him in a chifney, then a bridle I'm now down to an ordinary headcollar around the yard and field and the Dually for outings. I spend a few minutes whenever I get him in, or when he's just in the field standing next to him and rubbing his neck which he loves so that we're communicating without me actually wanting anything from him. He's started to come up to me in the field for a rub and a chat and then wanders off, I can even get him to follow me without being caught.

There's a lot of basic common sense in what I was taught by the NH bloke, but it was so useful seeing it demonstrated on my horse and havint it explained clearly that I would happily turn to him for advice again. One thing he did say that struck a chord was that they are big animals, then can hurt you and you need to treat them with respect and care but that doesn't mean letting them walk all over you literally or metaphorically. The horse needs to respect you and your space and vice versa.

Frosty it sounds like yours is quite like my boy. He's bargy to lead out - esp when he's been in for whatever reason or the others create the "Gauntlet of Doom" either side of the walkway leering at him haha!

I have been using short firm rope shake if he pulls or tries to run off on the way to the field and if he gets too bad I make him stop and ask him to go back a few steps. Mostly it works. He is the worst combination of very sensitive and cheeky and a bit bolshy! He nips at my arm if he's excited or frustrated.

Sorry bandito I'm totally thread hijacking... Apologies.

I've always thought that there is no reason to use negative techniques if positive ones will work instead. So, for me, there is no reason for dually type head collars and snaky ropes if you can just reward good behaviour. When helping people to train their dogs I have also found that the owners make the most mistakes, so the owner is going to get it wrong I would rather they gave a mistimed and ill deserved reward than an equally mistimed and ill deserved punishment.

In my experience again, the majority of horse behavioural problems have a physical cause from back pain to ulcers to low grade lameness to allergies to god knows what, they are very sickly creatures!

Totally agree Booboo.

Horses or dogs - there is always a kinder way. Positive reinforcement for the win.

Of course positive punishment and negative reinforcement (like rope shaking/join up etc) can work but the sad thing is that they can appear to be working BECAUSE these animals are so willing to cooperate and/or are non-confrontational. So most of the time the handler gets away with it. They aren't working for the reasons these "whisperers" say they are though.

Horses are SO tolerant. Look at the more extreme versions of horses in "outline" - tight curbs, nosebands and the horse hopelessly over bent and clearly desperately uncomfortable. And they take it 🙁

And yeah - God knows where the phrase "healthy as a horse" came from!! 😄

like rope shaking/join up etc) can work but the sad thing is that they can appear to be working BECAUSE these animals are so willing to cooperate and/or are non-confrontational

I really gave up on the idea of join up when I found out that you can achieve a very similar effect using a radio controlled car rather than a trainer.

God knows where the phrase "healthy as a horse" came from

And even when they're healthy, there's that perpetually staring at them thinking "are you OK? Are you? Tell me. Tell me. FFS point at which bit hurts would you". Whilst DHorse is happily snoozing in the sunlight.

Did some good lunging today and had the farrier out for the first time. It was extraordinary! Farrier whistled and talked to him and DHorse nearly dozed off with his head on the farrier's back whilst he was rasping. He was the only horse in on the yard and was utterly chilled around this guy even though they'd never met. Just shows what years of horse experience brings to a brand new relationship.