Help, I've lost control of a horse!

[Gemling]

I'll try and condense this. We have my daughters two horses on our property. Pony 1 is well behaved, we kept her after dd outgrew her and then we got a tb mare. Mare has now been with us for 10 years, dd did pony club and events with her, mare was always a bit strong willed but dd was confident rider and managed her well. Now dd is away from home (at uni) and mare hasn't been ridden in a couple of years. (With hindsight I see we probably should have moved her on, but she'd become a pet so she stayed.) Horses are stabled at night then moved into one of four fields each morning. The mare has become a proper handful, kicks out and bucks and has reared a few times when I'm leading her to the field. I've become very nervous of her, which she knows and reacts to. She's slightly better with dh, but he is often away and the horses have become my job. I know I've lost control of her, lost my nerve and don't know to improve things. Any advice? (She came to us quite head shy which we eventually overcame, but any jerk on a lead rope sets her off). Dd is not home enough to put in any significant schooling.

Do you ride her or is she on long term holiday while your DD is away?

I'd suggest get someone to excercise her? Keep her in your stable/fields but maybe phone a couple of stables to see if they have a competant pupil, maybe a working studant there?
Be honest about her character - yes she's strong but she's good with a confident rider.
You have lost your nerve with her and she's aware of this. But that's the nature of horses.
It seems a shame after your horse has achieved with your DD to waste her talents and let her get bored.

And, when you take her from stable to field, do you use a bridle or headcollar. Sometime a bridle gives them the "You're working here" vibe and gives you more control.

Good luck.

Or if not a bridle, buy a monty Roberts head collar and put the rope on the nose ring, then if she is naughty one sharp quick tug to remind her that good manners matter.
Long term do you intend to keep her as a per?

Sorry, should have elaborated, the monty Roberts head collar is good with headshy horses, as it is a very different action to tugging on regular leadrope.

Thank you for the advice. I haven't ridden for years, and this mare has shredded my confidence so thoroughly I am unlikely to ride her! I've looked at the Monty Roberts head collars online, and think that is worth a try. I usually move her with a head collar and lead rope, when she is being a pita I don't feel I have enough control with just that. (The other day I had just got her into the paddock when she ripped the leadrope from my hand and bolted, I was terrified she would break a leg tripping on the rope.) Mare is coming up to 22 years, we will keep her but consider her pretty much retired. We have an arena on the property, will try and do some lunging as I think she is bored. She may be bad tempered but I definitely seem to set her off, so I feel it's my fault. Thanks for the luck!

I would look for a natural horsemanship person or experienced horse rider to have a look and try understand what underlying reason is?

Is she bored, in pain, excited to go out, being dominant, maybe she needs to go 1st or 2nd, maybe stay out all the time?

Dually (monty Roberts) headcollar is excellent for control, but you still need to understand what's going on in her mind.

Echo the others... changing head collar might give you some leverage nut its not addressing the issue. Is mare put out before or after pone... is she only strong going out in morning or at oher times too. Does she have to be stable d or could she stay out all the time. Lots of avenues to ecplore to see if changes in management help.

There are several things you could do but they do involve doing groundwork training with her and if it's you that has to do the everyday handling then it neefs to he you doing the training ... with some help. Are you intereted in doing something like horse agility with her... helps give horse something to do mentally and physically ss well as improve relationship ... much better than lunging which imo is boring for everyone lol.If you aare interested theres lots info I can show you. You could also take the fight elements out of it and try clicker training..

wising you well... its horrible feeling nervous of a horse you have to handle daily.

The mare and pony go out together, the mare is extremely bonded to the pony and she gets very distressed if she loses sight of her. (The pony is good as gold, and when the mare kicks off she just stands and waits). The pony has cushings and is on a very restricted diet which is why we stable at night. Our stables back on to a small paddock, the pony is left in o/night (so she can't eat non stop) but we leave the back open for the horse so she can roam a bit. One night last week the mare kicked off so badly I chucked her back in the paddock and took the pony in. Mare went berserk, threw herself all over the place, barged the fences and chested the gate. I had to bring the pony back out to calm her down to bring her in! Physically they are in very good condition for their ages, they are regularly vetted, regular dentist and farrier visits, wormed, drenched etc, so I don't think it's a pain issue. She's bossy and I'm a wimp. I've never hit her (though I've been bloody tempted) and she doesn't like to be yelled at. I try to be calm and firm, though my knees are jelly sometimes. I think I need outside help, as suggested. Thanks for your thoughts!

sounds like you definately need back up..( can relate to the getting angry bit, who wouldn't at times when behaviour like this happens. Where in uk are you and what sort of trainer would you consider. I prefer pos reinforcement whenever possible but sound like you need something effective right now if you cant just leave her out ( is that possible if you put muzzle on pone ) .... and my preference in nh style training so might be able to point you to a trainer depending on where you are. I had a "dangerous" mare thats now a wonderful family pone so empathise (((0)))

Is it worth considering some sort of calmer , or stroppy mare type supplement ? I use Magic from Naf for my stroppy git , because when we got him he'd basically learned a lot of awful behaviour through the last owners neglect and inexperience . Think biting , rearing , barging his way out of the stable , being ungroomable without a whip because he'd take a chunk out of you and then try and throw himself on the floor type stuff . He needs a lot less now , but they also do an instant Magic powder that you can use as well as the supplement , which might work when you need to move her , but wears off in the field . My toad is a lot better now , the biting has stopped , he leads in nicely , doesn't barge etc , but I still have him on it on a maintenance level because he can still be very sharp .

tazzle, thanks so much for your advice and offer to help, but I'm outside the UK!

Plomino, what can I say, I must be dense, I'd never even thought of trying a calmer. I can get Naf here, am definitely going to try it. (If it doesn't work on the mare I can neck it myself.....) I'll give it a go before admitting defeat and bringing in a trainer.

I am super grateful for everyone's suggestions, thank you so much.

As an interim while you wait for the Monty Roberts headcollar (Dually?) to turn up, you can put the lead rope through the metal rings by the nose - it has the same action and will give you much more control.

The picture is what I mean, though with a leadrope not a chain

Why are you bringing them in at night? It's so unnatural and restrictive for them. Leave them both out and take them off any hard feed. Let them be horses!

Posted too soon.

Let them settle out in the field and then rebuild your relationship with them by just going and giving them a fuss a few times a day. Build it up slowly and calmly in a non pressured environment and things will settle down.

Is your yard and field safe enough for you to just let her follow you as you lead her friend in and out and if not could you do some fencing to make it safe . At one point my DM and dsis were having a similar problem with my old TB mare and no matter how often I showed them how to deal with her she just terrified them .

thinking, the op has said the other pony has cushings, unrestricted access to grazing could be fatal for him/her.
OP can you alter your set up so you don't always have to lead them to move them.
I will try to make myself clear, not a skill of mine on t'internet
we have our own stables/fields, and sometimes i have to go away for a few days for work, or just stay late some evenings.
My DH is helpful but totally unhorsey.
I have two fields where i have sorted the fencing so the gates open directly onto the stable yard. If i am away, and i want them to come in for some hard feed then all DH needs to do is open the stable doors first, put the feed in next, then open the field gate. All three of mine walk calmly into their stables and then he shuts the doors (or reverse).
Obviously i practice this with them when i am around, but they are amazingly regimented about it, always go to correct stable, and always in pecking order

Having cushions (or laminitis) doesn't mean the poor horses can't have 24hr turnout! I too have had pony with cushings who lived out 24/7! You just have to monitor the amount of grass in the paddock to prevent laminitis. In fact stabling a horse at night can increase the chances of laminitis occurring as it reduces blood flow to the foot due to lack of movement. Monitoring is the key electric fencing and strip grazing is the key. We have not had problems with lami for years by being vigilant not by shutting them in stables overnight!

depends on your grazing, (massively off the op's thread here)
i don't have a problem with lami either despite having 2 very likely candidates, but i deliberately keep my grazing poor, and supplement for my TB eventer (unshod and lives out all year) than the other way round.
for some cushings horses access to anything other than a woodchip arena can be too much. in good grass growing conditions even strip grazing can allow too much grass growth for some cushinoid ponies, particularly as stressed grasses , ie over grazed paddocks have higher sugar levels.

Ah, the great stabling debate! I've read and heard compelling arguments on both sides. This is how it came about. Our pony came to us about 15 years ago, and lived outside 24/7. DD rode daily, did pc and events for several years and simply outgrew her. The mare came about 5 years later. She also was an outside horse, they always had adjoining paddocks. The pony then suffered a near fatal bout of laminitis, our vet strongly recommended stabling at night. Took the pony off to the stables each night, the mare was distraught. Paced, called and was extremely unsettled. Decided to put mare in stable next to pony. As mentioned earlier, there is a small paddock (about 1/6 acre) behind stables, we leave the mare's back door open overnight so she can wander. If the grazing is very poor we will open the pony's up too, she is contained while feeding or will try to steal the mare's food. (Our farrier also thought stabling was the lesser of two evils.) Pony is now a whopping 30 years old, on Pegolide and hanging in there. I can see (before anyone tells me off) that I have contributed to the separation anxiety by the initial decision to bring the mare in at night with the pony. Big mistake, should have stuck it out, but it's done now. It's the stabling that has led to bringing them in and out together, which led to my original problem above, which is leading a pony with one hand and a stroppy mare (who thinks having all four feet on the ground at the same time is a novel experience) with the other. So there it is, my horrible story. If anyone is still reading - if nothing else this is a lesson how you should carefully think through the ramifications of any decisions to change your horse(s) routines.

And - I hope I don't sound as if I making light of any of this, I'm gutted over it.

I don't think you did anything wrong horses are herd animals and love company .

Gemling - poor you, it's horrible when you lose your nerve and a crazy rearing TB is a scary thing. You don't sound like you're making light of it. Sometimes if you don't laugh, you'd cry. You're not doomed to this for ever though - give some of these ideas a go, especially help on the ground. I have a pony who I couldn't fetch in from the field, just wouldn't come. One hour with a freelance instructor and a headcollar, pone's head dropped, started chewing and followed like a lamb out of the gate. Wouldn't do it for me, but still! Good luck!

I never understand the bringing them in at night when there is more sugar in the grass during the day. Dshetland comes off the grass during the day (only in a bare paddock, we don't have stables) when it is more of a risk to her.

Hi Gemling
You're certainly not alone. I recently had two 3yo ponies and a TB at home and have been through a similar situation. As much as we love them, horses always seem to do their best to test us! Off the top of my head, i've had bolting, running through post and rail, snapping electric fencing and dragging the posts around the field.
It sounds like you are 100% doing what's best for them in terms of stabling and turnout. A few things that really helped me were:

Feed. Have you changed feed since she stopped working? Even certain cool mixes can be quite heating. Could it be that she now has too much energy? Dengie Hi Fi Lite, Allen & Page Fast Fibre and Equilibra 500 work well for my TB, low in sugar :) He's much calmer since changing.

Routine. Horses thrive on routine and can become anxious if things change. Try to make sure you turnout and bring in, feed etc. at similar times each day.

Leading. My TB was also headshy and although much better, he has a very strong fight/flight response and will start lifting his head when he wants to go. I found pulling on the rope or being forceful generally made this much worse. Instead I keep the rope quite loose, but still tightly held in my hands, to give him his head (and prevent him from fighting) and I make him stop if he starts trying to walk ahead of me (an elbow/ arm pressed against the chest helps if you're really struggling to keep control). I know this goes against your instincts, and I wouldn't recommend doing this if you feel unsafe, but after a few goes he soon got the idea and became much more relaxed when leading and he's now absolutely brilliant. You might want to practice in the field if you think that would be better? A reward is a nice incentive for a sensible walk :)

Gloves. Rope burn is the worst!

Circles. If it's safe to do so, then you might want to try turning her in a circle if she starts picking up pace. It may help teach her that she doesn't get anywhere by rushing ahead. Obviously I wouldn't recommend doing this if she's kicking out etc. I also turn a circle back towards the gate when I turn out. If I just walked straight into the field and then tried taking the headcollar off etc., he would try to bolt off, but turning the circle made him wait and listen to me while I took everything off and then he got a pat and went on his way.

Calm. I know it's hard when she's making you nervous, but try and approach her calmly and confidently, avoiding any quick movements. Have exactly what you're going to do (which field etc.) in your head and stick to this. If you can, try and bond with her when she's in her stable or turned out in the day. She may have been used to more attention than she gets now.

It might also be worth having a think about the pony and if it's easier to turn the pony out first while the TB is safely stabled and then go straight back for her or perhaps it works better the other way around? Either would be safer than trying to manage both.

Sorry for the rambling post, but I totally sympathise with you and hope you find something that works for you.

Having had another read through I think I might go against the grain here but...
You say she is bossy and you say you've never hit her. Tbh I think however much we want to bond etc a horse is a big animal and there is a time and a place for a good whack to put them in their place. Sometimes they want you to set the boundaries and be the leader. I'm not advocating taking a whip to a horse and giving it a good beating but if you've never hit her perhaps this is why she's walking all over you.
Dhorse can be a real thug (so much so that the vet advised me to sell him) and in seven years I can count on one hand the times that he's had a proper smack from me but he's always much chastened afterwards and minds his manners for a while.
I realise it's hard when you are nervous (dhorse picks up on this with me too) but I find being properly kitted out helps a lot. Hard hat, gloves and steel toe caps if you can get some, plus I second the Monty Roberts headcollar, it's given me much more control of dhorse when he is in a strop.

On the other hand, does the fact that your daughter is at uni mean this is a short-term situation? Can she come in the holidays and give you a hand? If so I'd be tempted to stop putting yourself at risk and not bring them in during term time. Do what we do and have a smaller paddock within the larger paddock so the cushings pony can come off the grass but still be next to the others. A bit of hay will keep everyone happy. Much less stress all round and you can work more gradually on the leading problem when you have someone around to help you.

Do you lead them out separately or together? If separately who do you take out first? If together is one person trying to lead both?

If she is too much to handle, I don't think both should be led by one person. Either the mare should be turned out first, or get someone to go with you so it's one person leading one pony, and then the mare should be led into the field first and turned back towards the gate, before being released.

A shank (a bit like Teenagers photograph) is a strong control, but can take a bit of practice.

Have you thought of use bit straps/connectors to put a bit on her headcollar for leading? This would immediately give you more control, as long as you used something like a Newmarket Chain, so your lead rope applied downward pressure to both sides of the bit at once (otherwise she coiuld just open her mouth and let it slide through).

You're a good bunch of people, you really are.
I feel much better, first from having a whinge/vent, then reading your advice and tips.
I do feel a bit more confident for having some tips to try.
miss and pixel, happy to hear you fixed your horse problems, gives me hope!
Dish, the mare and pony go out together, as explained earlier. Not such a problem if dd or dh is here, but they often aren't.
Thank you all, so much. I can feel a steely resolve forming inside me!