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Original poster

Loan Termination dilemma

53 replies

Whitegrenache · 10/06/2012 17:55

Hi.

We loaned a lovely 11.2hh welsh mare in sept for dd 6 as her first ridden pony. she was ok to start off with and very green, but she showed potential.
the only warning sign was that she did rear once at pony club games rally, but that was due to me bashing cups together (in front of her face)
Blush to get her used to the noise as she was a little frightened, and although i thought it was very naughty i gave her the benefit of the doubt and blamed myself for scaring her. (her owner told me she had never done this before)

She does rear when I bath her or if we try to clip her, and its her way of protesting and being a bloody stroppy mare, but she has never done it since under saddle and my dd has learned to ride beuatifully so everything was going well............

at a PC rally on wednesday, again she went well in the morning, then in the afternoon, i was stroking her and pulled a bit of mane out of the brow band and she reared up full height Shock twice

I got my dd off and investigated and she kept doing it everytime i touched her ears so I took off her bridle, and took her home Sad

dd and I were really upset as I realised then, she would have to be sent back to her owner, as i could not risk dds safety ever again on this pony.

I rang her owner and told her over the phone that I dont want the pony anymore. the owner came to look at her and claimed one of her ears was slightly swollen and sure enough every time we went near them, she reared again.
she also mentioned that she once reared with her when she rode her a number of years ago, but had not done it since Hmm
Anyhow, i told her we would keep the pony on grass here over the summer, as I did want her to go back to the allotment where she came from over summer as I felt she should at least have a nice summer here.

This is my dilemma, the owner has been back today to see her whilst we where out, and has texted tonight to ask us to get the vet out for her as she is still sore and rearing when you touch her

My loan agreement says that i need to give 30 days notice of termination and that i am liable for any vet treatment whilst under my care...it also stated that I must have insurance for the pony which to be honest I have never gotten around to doing yet, which I know is stupid.

This is now where I would like your advice.

I have told her I will arrange a vet this week to see to her (which I will pay for) but that I have given her my 30 days termination and that she is welcome to keep the pony here on a free grass livery basis, but she must take out insurance in case she gets hurt or kicks one of my other horses etc...

Do you think I am being fair?

Do you think I have a genuine reason for terminating the agreement with imediate effect due to the pony being dangerous, and should I just ask her to remove the pony asap to prevent further issues?

Thanks in advance for your hel

OP posts:
frumpet · 10/06/2012 18:17

I would be tempted to wait and see what the vet says . It may be that once she is no longer in pain she will be fine iyswim. However i cannot abide rearing , i can cope with just about any other 'vice' in a horse . Well done to your DD for staying mounted whilst it did its hi ho silver impression though .

Original poster
Whitegrenache · 10/06/2012 18:21

Thanks

I am definately not putting dd back on this pony ever again, i simply cant take the risk. I too can cope with most other vices apart from rearing, and to be honest she frightens me too Blush

Getting a new pony on a trial basis on wednesday and dd rode it with far more confidence than she ever did with the orignal one so maybe she was nervous of it too.

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 10/06/2012 18:35

It sounds like the pony is in pain and rearing because of it, so I would get the vet out and see. If she does have a physical problem which can be addressed then I think you would be too hasty to get rid of her. Any pony you get will react badly to being in pain, e.g. if their saddle hurts them they may buck etc., you can't guarrantee an animal that doesn't react to pain. So yes I think you should lose out from returning her.

Also what kind of rear did she do? Did she hop a bit on the front legs? Did she go full up and wave her feet in your face? Did she nearly go over backwards?

Having said that, this is the point of loans. Since you have given notice you are free to terminate for whatever reason you want. I do think you should pay for the vet and whatever treatment the pony needs though - her welfare is your responsibility for the next 30 days and it's your fault you forgot the insurance.

Original poster
Whitegrenache · 10/06/2012 18:46

Fair point
She reared full height no leg striking
She obviously has a tendency to do it

OP posts:
Original poster
Whitegrenache · 10/06/2012 21:18

Bump

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 10/06/2012 23:22

She's reacting to pain. My yearling was doing it last week when I was flushing out his abscess. He doesnt do it any other time. My old mare, a very successful LR pony, rears over backwards when she is being bathed. It has no bearing at all on her behaviour under saddle.
Your owner says the pony has only ever reared once before, well once in its entire life isnt unreasonable!
I think that as you we're in the possession of the pony when it's ear became swollen, and/or it started to rear, you need to pay for the treatment. It's a little harsh to write off the pony, because it is reacting to pain. It's not being spiteful, or trying to unseat its rider. It doesn't have a 'tendency' to rear, it needs veterinary treatment. I'm a little Hmm that you are replacing her, within a week, without even having her checked out by a vet.
It seems to me that you might be looking for a reason to send her back, Im not sure you have 'grounds' for anything!
IMO you need to be fixing this pony, and returning it in the condition in which you received it.

Pixel · 10/06/2012 23:58

Do you think I have a genuine reason for terminating the agreement with imediate effect due to the pony being dangerous

I don't think that you have any evidence that the pony is dangerous, but you do have evidence that she is in pain. She is only reacting as any animal would if it was hurting and tbh, she sounds like a saint if she "went well all morning" at a pc rally even though she had something wrong with her!

I'm quite surprised the owner had to ask you to get the vet actually.

Booboostoo · 11/06/2012 07:34

I have to agree that if she rears in pain you cannot conclude that she has a tendency to rear. Horses behave differently when in pain, treat the pain and in most cases the behaviour goes away (and in this case she is not rearing continuously, she is only rearing when you try to touch her sore ear).

Callisto · 11/06/2012 08:12

Well, I have a pony out on loan with some people and if this same scenario happened I would be pissed off that you hadn't spotted the swollen ears and not got the vet out already. I disagree that the pony is dangerous. And if it was my pony I would have terminated the agreement there and then and taken her away. Also, I think that you need to be very careful before you start bandying around the 'dangerous pony' lable for this one, especially with the other pony clubbers. That would piss me off too.

I know this isn't AIBU, but in this case I do think that you are being unreasonable.

Treblesallround · 11/06/2012 08:19

I have to agree with Callisto and Saggy, I wouldn't let you have a pony on mine on loan if you aren't prepared to get the vet out when the pony is clearly in pain. Be careful of your reputation!

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 11/06/2012 10:09

As for the 'forgetting to get the insurance', that puts you in breach of the contract.
As Trebles said, be careful of your reputation. I have lots of pc friends who loan out their ponies, and they are very protective of their animals reputation and desirability. You may find that you can't get another of loan if you aren't careful! I'm not in pc, but it's taken very seriously, don't underestimate the power protectiveness of a pc pony owner!

FannyFifer · 11/06/2012 10:14

You have not even got a vet out to check the animal, over a week since it was noticed that there was an issue?Hmm

frumpet · 11/06/2012 11:55

Has the vet been out yet ?

higgle · 11/06/2012 13:38

You frightenend the pony by banging cups in front of it? You agreed to insure the pony and didn't? You delayed getting the vet out to an animal in pain? I really don';t think you are a suitable person to have the loan of the pony, hoperfully the owner can collect it back soon - but out of decency you should pay the vets bill.

LisaD1 · 11/06/2012 14:18

I agree with previous posters, I would be furious if this were my pony. The poor thing is clearly in pain and you have a duty of care to get it seen by a vet.

There is no excuse for "forgetting" to take out insurance and even less so if it is part of your loan agreement.

Until the pony is handed back to it's owner it is your responsibility to tend it's needs.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 11/06/2012 14:44

Even after the owner takes it back, you are responsible for the cost of any medical treatment needed for this problem. I have only sent one pony out on loan, and that ended badly, but the basic rule I specify is 'you break it you fix it'!

LisaD1 · 11/06/2012 15:00

Totally agree Saggy.

I'm struggling to find a loan pony at the moment and reading things like this it's no wonder people don't want to loan them out.

Original poster
Whitegrenache · 11/06/2012 15:34

Some of the Points made i will accept, others I am not so sure about.

To clarify......I am getting the ponys ear looked at at my cost, and I have now got the pony insured whils she is in my care (although this wont cover this incident)

The owner came and saw her on wed evening after the incident and asked me to wait and see how she went on over the weekend, it was only yesterday afternoon that she decided to get a vet out.

Vet is coming Thursday....i am away with work all week and I have told the owner she can organise one sooner if she wishes (she did not want to
)
Pony has a habit of rearing in hand and once under saddle in my care and has done it in the past with owner (mumber of times was not discussed).

I have had horses all my life, and although I did bang cups around her which yes did scare her and was stupid, there is NO excuse for rearing in my opinion, although if she had shyed etc I would have understood,but maybe thats debatable.

If my hores ever reared, I would never get back on its back, so why would I risk DDs safety?

Pony has scared me to be honest and I dont trust it Sad

A few people at pony club who witnessed this incident and the previous prior rearing at the games rally, have all told me in the nicest possible way that it is dangerous and not to put dd on it every again, so maybe I have been influenced by that.

I would never feel comfortable taking the pony to pc again as there are a few gossipy people around who would think I was being irresponsible.

I have agreed to pay for treatment, and I have given my 30 days notice period and have offered to have pony on free grass livery which the owner has accepted.

OP posts:
Callisto · 11/06/2012 16:34

But in your OP you didn't mention that the pony has a habit of rearing in hand, only when it is being bathed/clipped. My little sheltie/welsh who is on loan atm rears, barges and is generally pretty objectionable when something is happening to him that he doesn't like (most things when I first got him, almost nothing now) but it doesn't mean he is dangerous to ride or handle. And I stand by my first comment. This pony is not dangerous, she reared because she was in pain and you didn't even realise she was in pain until the owner came out to see her.

Original poster
Whitegrenache · 11/06/2012 16:56

would you really put your little girl/boy back on a pony which had had a history or rearing (pain or no pain) or would you decide to start over again and find one that does not rear?

Again barging, shying, even bucking can be tolerated to a certain degree, but rearing?

Its a no brainer to me....

Obv though I have a responsability to have it checked over by a vet.

OP posts:
SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 11/06/2012 17:04

Why is rearing any worse than bucking?
Yes, I would put my child back on. our first welsh used to behave like a Total twat sometimes when dd rode it. She still rode it though. It was the only pony we had. She can now sit through rearing, bucking and generally behaving like a rocking horse fly! And what a pony does I hand has very little bearing on how it should behave under saddle IMO.
Your posts here have shown you in a very bad light I'm afraid. I'm slightly Hmm about the changing facts, and to me, you sound like a nightmare loaner. Sorry.

Callisto · 11/06/2012 17:04

It is impossible for me to say as I wasn't there so I couldn't judge the body language of your pony, or any extenuating circumstances. But from what you have described, I wouldn't write her off because she reared when in pain, no.

SaggyOldClothCatPuss · 11/06/2012 17:05

Although actually, you just sound like a typical pony club parent!

Treblesallround · 11/06/2012 17:10

I too expect a competent child to be able to sit a rear as well as a buck, although it is unnerving. My horse has taken to rearing (not very high) when she's stressed, if you push her on rather than giving her time to compose herself. If I give her time and just let her stand for a minute she's fine. I wouldn't stop riding her because of it, and I'm a wimp!

Original poster
Whitegrenache · 11/06/2012 17:18

well, maybe I am ultra nervous, cos there is NO WAY I am letting my child sit on the pony again.

dd sat like glue btw if that helps!

Yeah I suppose I am a typical PC parent what ever one of those is

The thing that keeps resonating in my head is if my dd came off and hurt herself I would never forgive myself esp if I knew there was a history.

Thanks for all you opinions

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