Loan Termination dilemma

[Whitegrenache]

Hi.

We loaned a lovely 11.2hh welsh mare in sept for dd 6 as her first ridden pony. she was ok to start off with and very green, but she showed potential.
the only warning sign was that she did rear once at pony club games rally, but that was due to me bashing cups together (in front of her face)
to get her used to the noise as she was a little frightened, and although i thought it was very naughty i gave her the benefit of the doubt and blamed myself for scaring her. (her owner told me she had never done this before)

She does rear when I bath her or if we try to clip her, and its her way of protesting and being a bloody stroppy mare, but she has never done it since under saddle and my dd has learned to ride beuatifully so everything was going well............

at a PC rally on wednesday, again she went well in the morning, then in the afternoon, i was stroking her and pulled a bit of mane out of the brow band and she reared up full height twice

I got my dd off and investigated and she kept doing it everytime i touched her ears so I took off her bridle, and took her home

dd and I were really upset as I realised then, she would have to be sent back to her owner, as i could not risk dds safety ever again on this pony.

I rang her owner and told her over the phone that I dont want the pony anymore. the owner came to look at her and claimed one of her ears was slightly swollen and sure enough every time we went near them, she reared again.
she also mentioned that she once reared with her when she rode her a number of years ago, but had not done it since
Anyhow, i told her we would keep the pony on grass here over the summer, as I did want her to go back to the allotment where she came from over summer as I felt she should at least have a nice summer here.

This is my dilemma, the owner has been back today to see her whilst we where out, and has texted tonight to ask us to get the vet out for her as she is still sore and rearing when you touch her

My loan agreement says that i need to give 30 days notice of termination and that i am liable for any vet treatment whilst under my care...it also stated that I must have insurance for the pony which to be honest I have never gotten around to doing yet, which I know is stupid.

This is now where I would like your advice.

I have told her I will arrange a vet this week to see to her (which I will pay for) but that I have given her my 30 days termination and that she is welcome to keep the pony here on a free grass livery basis, but she must take out insurance in case she gets hurt or kicks one of my other horses etc...

Do you think I am being fair?

Do you think I have a genuine reason for terminating the agreement with imediate effect due to the pony being dangerous, and should I just ask her to remove the pony asap to prevent further issues?

Thanks in advance for your hel

i think you should pay for the vets bills due in your 30 days notice, if the vet rules that she is in pain and therefore the cause of the rearing. It is your fault for not having the insurance i'm afraid.

however i would not allow her free livery at yours even if it does suit you. I know you have asked her to insure against her horse injuring others but what about if it escaped, or she felt you were negligent in your upkeep etc, you can bet she would find a way to cause an issue, im sorry to say these things always come back and bite you on the bum.... just like you not sorting the insurance!!!

A typical pony club parent, round here, is one who gets their child a pony, then when it isn't perfect, casts is aside and gets another. And another. And another.
If you are worried about your child falling off, then buy her a rocking horse. Riding is just about the most dangerous sport there is. A perfect pony won't teach your child anything at all, except how to sit still and look cute. The days when you fall off, or things go badly, are the days you learn the most. Ask any professional rider. Yes she is your child. Yes it's horrible to watch them struggle or fall off, but its horse riding. The pride in watching them get up, wipe the tears, and get back on, then not fall off the next time outweighs that.

Ponies rear for a reason. Find the problem and fix it. There is no such thing as a perfect pony. Teach your dd to actually ride imperfect ponies, she will reap the dividends.

As for a summer in a nice field instead of an allotment, BAD IDEA! The last thing a welsh A needs is the summer stuffing it's face in a big field. And that wontmake it any less green, will it?

But Saggy, the little girl is only 6 - surely a pony which rears is unsuitable for a first ridden, regardless of why it happens? I know and respect that there's loads of knowledge and experience on this board but the OP is getting a bit of a drubbing, I feel. She was wrong not to get the vet out earlier and should have had insurance, but there's a load of difference between expecting, say, a competent 10 year old to ride it out and mounting a 6 year old on a green pony which rears. Agree with pmgkt that the free livery is just asking for trouble. Best to finish this on a friendly note according to the contract, pay for the vet and move on.

But it's not a pony that rears. It's in pain.

Saggyoldcloth...I can guarantee I will NOT be swapping and selling ponies every year just for the sake of it!

I too like you, cant abide the whole swapping ponies PC crap just cos they have the tinest bit thing wrong with them "al la pony club parents"! so at least we can agree on something.

Trust me, dd has fallen off plenty of times and she gets told to get on with it and that it is part of learning to ride.....having said that she is only 6 and surely as her parent it is my responsibilty to ensure I minimise the risk? hence stopping her from riding this pony again?

Also, do you really think that I will simply put a pony out on a lush field so it can get laminitis???? really do you think I am that cruel/stupid??

She and my other 2 horses live on a bare paddock of 1 acre plus hay and they are not at all fat, plus she has a muzzle.......I have another 4 acres of lush grass which I will graze sheep/cows on over the summer and then the horses have the full 5 acres over the winter which is practially bare by then, and its worked well for 10 years! no laminitis so far for this pony, my shetland and my very good doer weslh cob!

Yes she is in pain, we can probably all agree with that and yes I should have got insurance, but I am paying for the vet.
But I will say it again, I will NOT tolerate rearing in any situation as I feel it is way too dangerous

Thanks for the support wisecamel
i was begining to think I was going mad after reading some of these replies, and even rang my very horsey friend and my dds godmother to check if I was doing the right thing and she totally agreed with me and eased my mind a little, i even rang the owner and asked if waiting till thursday for the vet was ok and she said yes.

Agree maybe the grass livery may not be a good thing, but believe it or not everyone, this cold hearted bitch that you think I am, was actually trying to think of the ponies happiness and I thought it was a fairer option, rather than just send her back to her owner after 30 days and be stuck in an allottment the size of a postage stamp

also can I once again confirm that everyone understands that this pony does rear if it objects to anything we do in hand, such as bathing, clipping and loading etc and also has reared in response to a fright it got back in Jan (stupidly my fault), plus the owner has told me only last week that is used to rear when they rode it a few years ago, somthing she never told me before I took it on loan................so even if it is pain that is causing this problem, it has clearly developed rearing as its defence mechanism, and I can not trust it not to do it again if something happens again when dd is riding it.

Green pony for lead rein child. Inexperienced parent? Possibly. Sounds better you have ended the agreement for all concerned

With regards to rearing, my big mate rears. I do not class her as one. She rears when scared and when she can see no way out of a situation. My welsh would stand and take it. They just have different personalities. Both are dreams to handle. Both have their quirks. I do not know any horse or pony which is problem free. It's what you expect from your horse and what you will accept that make it perfect for you.

I have in my eyes the perfect pony. I've seen millions of wanted ads for which she would be perfect for. I've not responded to the majority as they are IMO looking for something that doesn't exist. Mine hacks out alone, in company, hunts, events, does camp you name it, it does it. It's a doddle to lead, load, shoe. It hates being clipped, it's difficult to catch (unless you have a bucket of feed). I think these points are the worth the compromise. She is not though 100% in everyway. So I do not respond to adverts.

My other mare is 100% to catch, clip handle. It hacks out alone and in company. It's hunted, superb dressage horse. It doesn't like jumping. She has reared. But she's 100% to handle in all other ways. I don't like the rearing but on every occasion there has been a very valid reason (and I do not make excuses!) I know many people would have got rid and fair enough, it's bloody scary !! But she's always had a reason, she doesn't just rear everyday.

Good luck with your new pony!

Thanks Horselady

I will admit I am very inexperienced when it comes to my children riding, we have only been doing it for a year. However I do have 15 years experience having my own horses.

I agree totally with you. My shetland is old, wont jump and has no mouth but is amazing with the kids and as a lead rein pony is fab.

My horse is dream to do anything with on the floor, but can be difficult to catch, and to box. But he is a dream to hack out alone and with my dd on the lead rein, but take him hunting or XC schooling and he is way too strong but I love him regardless and have had both my other horses for 10 years, so trust me I dont give up easily

I will tolerate things as there is no such thing as a perfect pony

Interestingly though, since my dd has tried 2 potential new ponies over the weekend, it was like watching a different child, she rode them so much better and had so much more confidence compared to the original pony, so I am wondering if she has been a bit nervous or that perhaps they just where not suited after all?

Perhaps, I've watched kids ride different ponies differently and like you say with more confidence for no apparent reason. I've also walked daren't trot as it was about to explode a horse round a field and got off immediately. I'm experienced, I know when a horse will do something and what is within my abilities.

Some horses will rear in response to a situation. I own one and I checked everything to check theres no physical reason for her behaviour. There isn't, she rears when she feels trapped. So we avoid getting trapped.

I don't think I'd let my child ride a green pony to learn on. I don't think id want them on one that rears. There has been reason, yes, but your daughter is 6. I agree with insurance, but youll hopefully not do it again, and I hope you've ended the agreement amicably.

The horsey world (ESP pc!!) is a very small one. Reputations are easily made. Good luck!!

yes I want to end the agreement amicably

Yeah PC is a very small horsey and bitchy world!

I don't like rearing and it would phase me a bit BUT she is in pain so I would definitely see if the vet sorted it.

We loan our pony and to be honest I would be MORTIFIED if the owner had had to text me to ask to get the vet out. I am scrupulous about his care and welfare as he is not actually ours, he is young (6) and I don't want to spoil him!

Having said that, of course you can terminate with 30 days notice for whatever reason.

I think if you are worried about a pony 'risking your daughters safety' then stop putting her on them. Any pony can rear. Therefore any pony is a risk.

I don't think the pony is any more dangerous than the next one - It's clearly in pain.

Also, You sound like a complete novice. I am actually astounded. People like you give loaners a bad name.

Without commenting on the vet or loan situation, because I think the OP has had a few slightly less than helpfully worded replies on that front, I would tend to say that there is no place in a child's stable for a rearer. I'm not commenting on this pony in particular, just on rearers in general. Whatever the reason is for rearing, I wouldn't be happy myself on a horse with a tendency to rear, let alone either of my children.

Once upon a time, when I was bold and young, I used to ride horses for a living. I rode what I was told to ride. I was told to ride a horse with a tendency to rear, and eventually she went over backwards on me. I had a very lucky escape, and came to the conclusion that it is just not worth it. I would ride a bucker, a napper, a spooker and spinner. I ride horses that like to go quite a bit quicker sometimes than the rider intended. But rearers, along with bolters that bolt and run in blind panic, for whatever reason, are right up there at the top of my list of creatures that only an idiot or someone with nerves of steel would voluntarily get on. It is foolish to say that a 6 year old child ought to be able to competently sit a rear, or any other kind of difficult behaviour.

As someone who was described as the local rodeo rider when I was a child, and spent every week from the age of 7 up to the age of about 17 eating dirt as I got bucked off yet another supposedly unrideable pony, I can tell you that there are other ways of ensuring your child is a good rider than putting it on a difficult pony that frightens the child.

ah thanks Backinthebox!!

UPDATE.........

Vets been out this afternoon, he observed the pony in the stable for a few mins then went in very gently and tried to examine her face and she reared uo full height again.

He remarked that this was not a pony in pain as he ahd hardly touched her, but rather a behavioural issue.

He told me that a examintation under sedation would not show any ohysical cause but I asked him to do it anyway.

After a thorough examination he concluded that she had no ear problems, no poll fractures and no sinus/teeth issue.

He also remarked that if he was vetting this pony as though we were buying it, he would fail it without even examining it as is clearly was a danger to children.

He reinforced that we were doing the right thing in giving her up.

The owner arrived at this time and he told her exactly the same thing and we agreed to terminate the loan with immediate effect and she wants the pony returned tomorrow.

We have ended this totally amicably and without any arguments and I feel fully comfortable with my decision.

Thanks everyone...........I will learn to trust my instinct in the future and not stress too much over comments on this site which have made me feel like I have been a complete bitch

Glad its all ended ok. You did have a bit of a hammering on here and I do feel unfairly as people don't know all the facts yet think they can criticise . The downside to open forum and asking for help. Good luck with the next pony.

Glad she's in no pain. Glad it's all ended amicably.

I think some of the comments have been very unfair towards you (I had written a lengthy reply which got lost!!) but that's the wonderful world of horsey people :) everyone had to start somewhere, everyone has to learn and everyone makes mistakes.

Good luck with your new pony and I hope if you need advice again you wouldn't hesitate to ask.

The family who loan my pony are a complete nightmare they are forever doing daft things ( none of which endanger the pony they just could damage themselves!!) but someone needs to teach them before they go out and buy a pony. I don't mind, my pony gets to stay with me, she's loved by lots of people and she's fine. When I come to get another loaner, I will either thoroughly vet the home or have a similar situation.

Good luck :) and keep enjoying it. I love horses and everything to do with them :) hence giving up a lot of my time to run shows, clinics, rallies and teach!!

Good luck with the next pony.

For the love of god, please don't try to bombproof it using your own particular methodology.

Wtf is that supposed to mean? Can people not make fucking mistakes ?

Really cheesed off with the mentality of some people on here

Maybe the pony was one of thoe fab on the lead rein, little sod off it ones then? Good luck with the new one. Incidentlly GD (who I would expect to sit small rearing but not right up and over backwards stuff!) is 13, not 6, so a bit different, so a bit harsh of me.

Thanks for the update White Grenache, but I am confused that the vet called the rearing a behavioural issue when it clearly isn't because you have had her for 8 months without a problem. Also confused that the vet said it was behavioural when she reared even though he barely touched her, but concluded that she was not in pain when examined under sedation. Sedatives are a pain killer as well as making the horse sleepy so it seems a strange thing for the vet to say.

God I can't win
Even when a professional tells us she is not in pain and is rearing because she is naughty I am still not correct to send her back

White - take a deep breath, and then maybe ask mn to remove the thread. you have done what is right for you and your dd at this time, and clearly there are some people who just cant leave it.

Thanks