Livery stress - AGAIN

[ManateeEquineOhara]

I think I need a thread here to hopefully get some opinions and to rant.

I had a similar yard rant in January when I was moving from my yard of 8 years as there were massive changes there so it wasn't the same.

New yard was okay, I never felt quite so relaxed there, and the hacking in winter all involved a busy road, a few general niggles, but it was okay, v. secure and nice yard owners.

However I am pretty poor so the option for the mare to go to agricultural college on working livery, and I pay no livery in term time came up so we went. BUT (copy pasted from riding log!) -They changed her saddle (fine) but are now on about changing her bit, with no real reason. They want to shoe her all around (she has got to 14 almost entirely barefoot and now only wears back shoes for remedial reasons). I am not very good at getting my point across without seeming defensive and mad, but I think I am going to have to just be assertive! The worst thing of all is the daft rules. To lead my own horse I have to wear a hat and gloves! I got 'told off' for leading her up a little concrete slope, and the dcs have to wear hats to go into the field. The stupidest rule was one I saw today - there was a list of 'strictly not to be worn on the yard' items - and this included brightly coloured socks!!!I really think we are going to have to leave. Dmare actually seems to quite like it, but I can't cope with this! I feel like to them I am a useless horse owner (despite having been a student at another agricultural college doing equine!).

She is there on a 6 week trial, Monday will be 2 weeks and every day sucks imo, Dmare is like one of my children, I have owned her 11 years and now I feel like I am being told how I should do things with her! I am not giving up entirely, I am trying to be open about how it could go, but I am also starting to think that things cannot change that much!

I have a yard to look at next Saturday which is in a good location and sounds nice, but is SO expensive, the yard we just left is £70 a month, the yard prior to that was £62 per month, this is £108 a month :-/ However I am moving after Christmas and doing so should save me a few hundred pounds a month, it is just the few intervening months :-/

Horses are to enjoy!!
If your not enjoying her then you should move her!
Could you put up with the college until the trials up? Thats another couple of weeks rent sorted.
Could you try a part loan to help with a bit of her up keep until your back on your feet?
There loads of people out there who would love to part loan as they cant afford to keep their own!

I feel for you! I had a mare who I moved a few times because people were getting on my back, when i finally found a yard I liked, it made a HUGE difference to her and me! Im still there 4yrs on with my shetland!

You could start putting a bit of money back now while shes on free livery, might help later on!

Changing her saddle and bit would worry me unless the saddle did not fit or she was having problems with the bit. Did they explain why they changes the saddle/want to change the bit? Did they get a qualified saddle fitter to fit the new saddle? Is there a particular reason why they want to shoe her?

Why don't you sit down and have a chat with them about these things? Maybe you can reach a compromise and can stay on the yard.

The hat issue would not bother me, I wear a hat while handling and it's quite a good habit to get into.

Blondebat - thank you, and yes, I should just treat this month like any other and still put livery money aside.

Booboo- They changed the saddle because she only has a treeless, they did try hinting that she is more balanced in the GP - that is not the case, but for people not used to riding in a treeless it can make the rider less well balanced! They did not get a saddle fitter out and the saddle doesn't fit properly, the treeless was not a perfect fit either - she is absolutely round and really I want to save up and get a saddle from the native pony company. I did give the college permission to fit the saddle - it fits in all areas, except there is a massive gap over her withers although the saddle is extra wide, and it feels perched on her back.

The bit issues - she is in a french link with a gag - she is a gypsy cob and generally laid back, but if she wants to go she has a bloody big neck and will pull, they are on about putting her back in a snaffle - I have said that I really advise that they don't, she goes far better in her current bit. It is not like she is overly sensitive with it or any reason to think it must be changed!

The shoeing - again, they say it will make her more well balanced - well that is obviously part of a much bigger shoeing vs barefoot debate and barefoot enthusiasts would very much argue against that! I am not 'against' shoeing - she wears backs to help balance her funny gait from an old injury. As far as balance with the fronts go - well, her build is for driving not riding, any balance that schooling does not bring about is not going to come about imo.

The hat thing I can see why, when they have lots of (some rather daft) students, that it is a good rule to enforce. But it seems so silly - I often lead her in by her forelock usually! And riding bareback to the field is definitely out :(

The farrier is coming on Friday - so I do need to get things straight with them. It is really playing on my mind and I am not happy about decisions being made about my horse. I feel bad about telling them I am not happy too, but the mare is more important!

I was going to suggest finding a sharer, move to a nice yard and advertise or ask around - there will be plenty of interest, maybe you already know someone from college?

And yes - tlbg and bbg - sharer - that is what I need! In fact the YO's daughter in law from the yard I have just left wants to part loan her, but when I move that will not be near for me to get to her - but going back there at least until Easter (my kids are staying at the school they are in here until Easter) and part loaning with her is actually very much an option I may take.

I feel a bit bad because it is one of the other liveries from that yard - who works at the college - who helped her get in, and boxed her there, and put up with my daft questions beforehand. I feel a bit guilty about that.

You mustn't feel guilty, it hasn't worked out that's all. Very few people would enjoy life under that regime surely?

My sharers make lots of things possible (one for horse, one for pony) by paying half of everything and place very few demands - one only rides twice a week but it's still cheaper for her than lessons or whatever. Obviously we do piss one another off from time to time but that is usually my fault and most of the time it is all happy and nice!

Tender - are you Mitchie?!

Woke up this morning in a stress about all this, and in a stress about how much hay I will need to buy if we leave, but then thinking I have managed every year before now to buy hay! And actually, she does live on thin air. I am just seeing minor issues with all options.

Staying put - all as above.

Going back to old yard - familiar but not particularly bothersome niggles. Will be a real pain if they need stabling by day as they did when wet last year, esp when I am living 15 miles away.

Going to a yard near where I will live - will be a stress for the time while I still live 15 miles in the other direction!

Need some research. Am going for a run with my fried today around where I will be living (we are actually moving in with her for major money saving) - so might try and find a running route that encompasses random lanes where there may be little tucked away-perfect yards! There must be one somewhere!

Yes me!

Will be back in a mo, class starts in about 10 mins

Ahaaa! Class? (Show or lesson d'ya mean?).

I have noticed a terrible typo - I am going running with a friend - not fried, that sounds weird.

Wearing a hat to the field is irritating if you're not used to it- but is actually quite a sensible thing to do- lots of yards do it.

Coloured socks is a bit odd- surly that applied to the college students not to you?

About the bit- why not let them try? You can use whatever bit you like when you ride her - it's their problem if they get run away with! My dd's pony is qt working livery and she usually rides her bitless but when she's working she wears a snaffle.

Treeless saddle - a gp might be better ( I think - ready to be corrected) if she's being ridden by lotsnof different shapes and sizes of people? But I would insist on getting a saddler out to check the fit.

And shoes- why don't you be there next time the farrier comes and talk about it with him?

Don't, whateveryou do, give upon free livery unless you really have to!

Seeker - I think the sock thing is for students, but the language of the notice grates on me, I work at a Uni and the tone of the notice really got to me from a 'giving info to students' perspective, alongside the absolute pettiness!

Regarding the bit, at the most simplistic - I just don't want to be faffing about changing bits to ride my horse, not least when it is unnecessary for her to be in another bit anyway!

I'm not too fussed about the saddle - but I don't like the undertones of 'this is better for her than what you use, we are right, you are wrong', that I am getting. And that may be my paranoia and not a reflection of reality I am very prepared to admit!

I will be there for the farrier visit anyway - he is a good laugh! We have debated various shoeing options numerous times, with the general consensus being back shoes only is unconventional, but it works for the mare!

Thank you for replies so far - I need to just keep rambling on and hopefully in doing so will come to an answer!

I pm'd someone on the Horse and Hound forum who posted a search for livery in that area in January - this morning I rather bizarrely had a reply from another member telling me she is in Woodbury (the right area) and asking for my number. I was a bit about it being another member, and wanting my number, but I did a little search of her posts and they seem reasonable so I have given them my number. Will wait slightly anxiously to see whether a helpful person calls, or whether I start getting phone-stalked!

It sounds rally irritating- but as I said, it's free livery! Don't lose sight of that.

The bit thing is easily sorted- just get her another bridle. Dd's pony has tack she wears while she's working, and tack she wears when dd rides her.

I'd be cautious, tbh - it IS free livery, and that's not to be sneezed at, but its free livery with strings attached. What those strings might end up costing (both in stress and money) is what you need to work out before you can decide whether the "free" livery is actually good value.

If it were me, I'd be trying to have a chat with the farrier before Friday. From what you write it sounds as though it will be the farrier you normally use, and that he's been shoeing your mare for a while. He should be well placed to advise on the pros and cons of putting front shoes on your mare. One question I'd be particularly interested in is IF you mover her away at some point and want to go back to back shoes only, will it be as trivial as just taking the fronts off or will there be some reconditioning work involved - and if the latter, how long is it likely to take and will there be any cost implication?

The bit I'd probably not get too worried about (if they'd done it the other way I'd be a lot less happy!). If you want to carry on riding in the gag then that's easily solved by doing as Seeker suggests and getting a 2nd bridle. If they want to use a snaffle then (as long as it fits and she's happy and not having to be yanked around hugely) I wouldn't kick up a fuss there.

The saddle would worry me - not that they don't want to use treeless per se, but that they haven't had it checked and you don't feel it fits (just playing devil's advocate, are you sure it doesn't feel "perched" because you're out of the habit of riding in a tree'd saddle - my understanding was that a big gap over the withers isn't a problem in and of itself, as long as the panels are making contact and the pressure is well distributed across them).

The rules - the socks does sound silly, but the rest doesn't sound too daft for a busy yard, tbh.

I think my biggest concern would be the potential that some of the changes they make cause problems and that you, as the owner, are then left trying to sort them out (or having to sort them out as that's the only way to get them resolved to your satisfaction). If your mare gets a sore back through being ridden in a saddle that doesn't fit (at the colleges demand), what happens? Who picks up the tab? Who determines that she's sound enough to go back into work?

(I will caveat by saying we've had so much grief finding a saddle that works with our mare - and with her feet - that if anyone wanted to change it without our express agreement we'd go through the roof! I may be being slightly overly paranoid, but equally having had that experience, I'd want to know I wouldn't be left with a big physio bill trying to resolve and issue someone else had caused against my will...)

(was Halloween show jumping!)

my gut feeling is that you won't make a smooth or easy transition from total autonomy to All These Rules and Changes but I am probably projecting (is that the word? I think it is?) because I couldn't cope. Not sure how far free livery helps if you feel undermined, overruled and unhappy BUT is quite early days isn't it, so maybe you can negotiate?

You are right Seeker and Tangle - free livery is pretty amazing, but I am used to paying livery, it has been part of my budget for the last 14 years, so it seems a silly thing to throw out enjoying the mare in favour of saving something that is such a normal part of my budget. Also, it is not actually that big a saving. In the holidays when the students are not there as with the last week it is £35 p/w for DIY, and if we don't stay and go somewhere cheaper for the holidays there are still livery costs to consider, as well as possibly boxing costs. So far, with the cost of boxing her to the college, and paying for last week's livery, I have spent more on her this month than if we had stayed put!

The bit thing with another bridle is actually a good idea, although I still think they are daft to want to put her in a snaffle, and as Tangle said - her getting yanked around is a bit of a concern - she is not the most sensitive mouthed horse and is far more responsive to gentle aids in the french link w/gag.

I have talked about shoes with the farrier pretty extensively previously, he doesn't think they are necessary on the fronts, I have hacked miles with he barefoot, shoes are unnecessary.

Tangle - the saddle definitely feels odd to me being used to the treeless, but it is very perched, although it is okay fitting I think - I am concerned about it being used long term and with the amount of work the college would ask of her.

I spoke with the women who works there from my old yard today, told her I am not sure it is working for me and that I feel guilty about it, she was very nice about it. One of the things that has pissed me off is to do with some of the staff and the way the rules are enforced rather than the rules themselves, and I had a little talk about that. I said I will give it a couple of weeks with the students back.

Reading this back to myself, I sound like someone who has made up their mind already (to leave) and is trying to justify that against all other comments - this is not the case, I am really appreciating all your comments, it is helping me to think things through :)

We drove past the yard I am looking at on Saturday on the way home, couldn't see the stables, but it is on a caravan site and we could see a play area - DCs are now very keen to go there! I like the idea of it too - hacking from there is possible both on to the common and to the beach :o

It does sound like youve already made up your mind!
If you have spoken to your farrier about shoes and he agrees with you that there is no need to have front shoes on, then they have absaloutly no reason to do it!
OMG I would love to be in hacking distance to the beach!! That would be amazing! :)

TLBG - Halloween showjumping sounds so fun!!!

BBG - the beach is a major reason to forget all ideas of money saving. It is the BEACH, I wanna ride on it!

Sorry - where I was aiming for re. the farrier (but never actually got ) was that if the farrier genuinely believes that front shoes are unnecessary and not beneficial for your mare he should be prepared to argue the case to the college on your behalf. If he would rather put the shoes on then he should be able to support that position to you. I guess if it were me I'd be approaching him in a "the college have said they want to do this but I'm a bit confused as to what the benefit to the mare is going to be - I was hoping to be able to discuss it with you before Friday when, no doubt, it will be very busy..." in an effort to get him on side so he can take the lead on that "disagreement"

The potential yard does sound like it has a lot of promise (and a beach :o ). I'd also struggle to loose the autonomy of being independent, however much money it was going to save. We turned down a yard as the conditions included we had to use the yard manager's farrier and we had to use her vet and we had to use her back lady... We could quite understand why she had those rules in place, but it wouldn't have been the right yard for us - having worked with our farrier for 3 years to get a sound horse we have a LOT of loyalty to him (and the physio...)! Don't feel you have to justify whatever decision you make to anyone - ultimately we have horses because we enjoy them. If working livery is going to remove or substantially reduce your level of enjoyment then I'd be seriously questioning how sustainable it is as a solution for you and your mare.

Oh a beach, you lucky lucky thing.

They could treble my livery tomorrow and I would find a way to pay because I love it and would do anything to stay there - I don't think a day goes by when I don't consciously feel or express my gratitude to the cosmos/fates/God whoever led me there. Although we don't have a beach, and until that new thought arrived I believed all my needs were met! But they do organise beach weekends in the summer.

Think life is v short and too precarious to risk any misery creeping in and soiling the best and happiest bits, which is what our horses are isn't it?

Thanks Tangle and TLBG.

Tangle - good point about the farrier being forewarned actually, I shall message him before Friday. I am hoping now that I have made my feelings about probably not staying clear, that they shouldn't push the issue...hopefully.

So - went up there to meet the farrier. Spoke to the women from my old yard who works there conversation as follows -

"How's Dmare been"
"Okay, apart from getting kicked"
"panic, wibble, gah, omg my baby etc"
"Sorry, I should have called you".

Soooo, it transpires that she was kicked on a hack yesterday, she got sandwiched by other horses on the ride (that this happened annoys me alone) and one kicked her. It has broken her skin, and she has a little wound about half an inch and it is swollen all around it. It is high up on a front leg and she is not lame, but last time she was kicked she developed an abscess around the swelling, this looks okay, but I do worry.

Then I discover that despite my farrier being about to arrive, their farrier trimmed her front feet yesterday! My farrier was understandably pissed off about that, plus the fronts were not done level and my farrier took another cm off one side.

They have also put her into a snaffle. They said it is better because she does not toss her head about - again - wtf - she doesn't toss her head about anyway!!!

GAH!

Hope your mares ok!
I'd be out of there asap!
It sounds like they have no respect for you as her owner and are just doing as they please, despite what you say!

If your mare has started to toss her head about when she didn't before that is most likely as a result, not of the bit she is wearing, but the way she is being ridden. The combination she is used to is great when used sensitively. Used by someone who doesn't appreciate the action and who has heavy hands it would be pretty uncomfortable.

If they have now put her in a jointed snaffle and it's not used sensitively then don't be surprised if they report that she's started head tossing in that as well. A jointed snaffle can be a severe tool in the wrong hands. Expect to find them clamping her mouth shut with a flash, at which point I'd suggest that she's started to open her mouth to evade heavy hands.
Your mare has gone well barefoot at the front because your current farrier understands her feet and trims her the way she needs to be trimmed. Personally, I'd have gone absolutely ape if anyone had decided to have a different farrier start trimming her when the regular guy was already booked.
Re the saddle I would only allow a change of saddle if they were prepared to pay for a proper saddle fitter to visit and do a fitting with me present. Lots of people can't handle riding treeless, but if they want to change that they should do it properly and with your full involvement.
The problem with loaning a horse to one of these establishments is as you're finding, you lose control. Even when you clearly state your wishes you're never going to be sure that someone will either decide they know better, or do something you didn't want in ignorance. I am reminded of my friend who loaned her lovely cob gelding to a local college, with specific written instructions that he was not to be hogged and his feathers were not to be shaved off. You've guessed it, one afternoon I answer my phone to the sound of her heartbroken sobbing. She had gone up for a ride and found him completely clipped out, hogged, no feathers, no whiskers, everything off. (No whiskers FFS!).
Feeling the way you do, I'd take my horse away as soon as possible. A lot can go wrong in a few weeks.

As an aside, a quote from the inspirational horseman Buck Brannaman:

"Restrictive nosebands: (flashes and grackles). I hate them. Stupid. You are driving a car, and a light comes on to say you need oil. Do you punch through the glass panel and break the light, or do you buy some more oil? People who used grackles and flashes on their horses are the people who bash through their instrument panel. The problem is inside the horse, not outside."

Well said lucy