How many Personal Mentors on the PGCE are fit to teach at all?

[YetanotherPGCEdropout]

There appears to be so many people who drop out of the PGCE due to bullying from Placement Personal Mentors.
I know from experience that the University does not offer the student who is being bullied by their PM, any support whatsoever. In fact, unless the student leaves the PGCE very quickly, any requests for help from the University will be met with "we deem you unfit to teach".... which isn't very helpful.

Having read so many reports of PM's on Placements being absolute lunatics, my question is... "Who is testing whether THEY are fit to teach? Let alone train the next generation of teachers.."

The system lends itself to bullies. Because one person gets to sign off on the student's teaching practice.

One person doesn't.

quite often its someone who isnt that great and wants to get the trainee teacher to do most of their planning, teaching and marking for them, whilst holding the threat of failure over their heads if they complain.

You're speaking as if you know a lot of mentors. I have tens of mentors in my school and none of them are "not that great". It would be wholly irresponsible to put someone who wasn't at least a good teacher in charge of supporting another. And of course the trainee is planning, teaching and marking. That's what they're being trained to do.

And who is getting the 9k?? Because if it's the universities the pgce must be the most expensive course per contact hour there is.

They have to pay their staff on the academic side for a start, plus placement fees. Bigger courses have greater economies of scale but large cohorts will naturally subsidise the more niche subjects.

They're expected to plan their own lessons and do some marking yes, of course. That's the training and what they're being assessed on their ability to. Believe me it doesn't save the teacher work because you have to chase them for their lesson plan, then read their lesson plan, then give feedback on it and suggest changes if it isn't fit for purpose then chase up that version and repeat. Do you really think that saves a teacher work or time?

When I've mentored I haven't had the power to fail them and there had to be a lot of communication between the provider and the professional tutor (not the mentor) to deal with concerns about the students suitability and a lot of evidence that they were being given clear support and feedback on what they needed to do to improve but weren't applying it or doing anything to address the lack of progress. It simply isn't as a pp seems to think it is in reality.

Once upon a time when the standard of students was higher and teachers were able to, once they had shown they were capable of being left, leave the trainee to get on with the lesson and just be nearby and available if support was needed and discretely pass by and listen outside to check all was well, then yes it may have freed up half an hour per lesson to get on with some work but not now.

I find this thread to be really funny. I will explain why in a moment, but firstly two things. The mentors need to be paid extra for their work, and they need to be trained and monitored in case their conduct gets as bad as what is described below. (one of many PGCE mentor-from-hell stories)

Seashellsonthebeach · 06/09/2018 09:26
I've found quite a few others online who have had similar or worse experiences...its definitely a hierarchy culture and particularly with men a control thing...women a jealousy/insecure thing especially if they are younger...when my first mentor asked me what I'd like to specialise in...in addition to my subject, I said Pastoral care he was mad as hell because I didn't say Leadership in my subject. I was sat in assembly and he was leading it...he randomly asked the year group if they could see me as their head of year (I didn't teach this year group as it was an options year group) and to put their hands up...roughly a quarter did as I ran a lunchtime club for their year group he just said and that's why you'll NEVER make it!

MESSAGE TO MRS HAMLET . The words in brackets are Mrs Hamlet's quotes, and then she goes on to answer the quotes.

MrsHamlet · Today 06:57
(The system lends itself to bullies. Because one person gets to sign off on the student's teaching practice.)
One person doesn't.
(quite often its someone who isnt that great and wants to get the trainee teacher to do most of their planning, teaching and marking for them, whilst holding the threat of failure over their heads if they complain.)

You're speaking as if you know a lot of mentors. I have tens of mentors in my school and none of them are "not that great". It would be wholly irresponsible to put someone who wasn't at least a good teacher in charge of supporting another. And of course the trainee is planning, teaching and marking. That's what they're being trained to do.

Mrs Hamlet - I am very glad that you have mentors in your school who manage to be polite and professional. Do you think that they behave themselves, because they are aware that you are evaluating them? Sadly, not all trainees are in the position to have a "Mrs Hamlet" to protect them. If you go to the Student Room or other places where student trainees post, you'll see that many are in a desperate situation with nowhere to turn, and nobody to turn to.

Do you know that the first weeks in the Universities do not cover planning, teaching and marking? (If some do, I apologise, but that does seem to be the problem. Trainees arrive at the school and Mentor's don't know how little they have been prepared by the Universities. If the Mentors were trained, they would be aware of this perhaps?)

swallowedAfly · Today 07:28
They're expected to plan their own lessons and do some marking yes, of course. That's the training and what they're being assessed on their ability to. Believe me it doesn't save the teacher work because you have to chase them for their lesson plan, then read their lesson plan, then give feedback on it and suggest changes if it isn't fit for purpose then chase up that version and repeat. Do you really think that saves a teacher work or time?

My mother did her PGCE at a Uni in the 90's. During her first placement she was left 100% alone. The mentor did not evaluate her at all. There was no reading of her lesson plans, no feedback, no suggested changes etc. She was a mature student and had no problems with classroom management, despite the fact that it was school with challenging students, many from overseas who struggled with language skills. She had a similar set up with her second placement. No supervision. No real attempts to train her. I don't know if things have improved, but reading some of the vitriol and malice-laden comments on here - I would be scared to be in the same room as some of these teachers - let alone be attempting to get any sort of training out of them.

Have to say "swallowedAfly", you seem like you've got anger-issues.😂

@swallowedAfly if you are a good mentor then obviously it doesn't save any time. Of course it is a lot of work to do this role properly and should be remunerated.

I was talking about the mentors that aren't very good, not about the ones who are. A typical example would be making the trainee mark all the exam papers for the whole year group not just their classes.

Quite a few people on my course sadly had very difficult experiences but I wasn't intending to offend any one taking this role seriously.

JaffavsCookie · 04/07/2022 22:59
i haven’t read your other thread, but to add to points already made on this one.
victim mentality is not a suitable characteristic for a teacher, extrapolation from your own particular experience to lots/many of mentors are bullies is not helpful, and almost certainly untrue.
Your own domestic circumstances are also not relevant. To the child in care, the child whose parent is in prison, whose parents are in the middle of a messy divorce etc etc, we as teachers are the constant. You need to be in the classroom, fully focused and thinking about the day ahead, maximising the life chances of every kid you run across, not making excuses before the day has even started. Of course it is possible you cannot manage that, in which case, then yes, you are unfit to teach.

If you take this post as an example of "how not to speak to a person" ??

1)"Victim mentality is not a suitable characteristic for a teacher"

2)Java's accusatory reaction - note the tone of the words "making excuses before the day has even started/ Of course it is possible you cannot manage that, in which case, then yes, you are unfit to teach" Is everyone taking note of the very personal, very harsh tone from Java? Interesting isn't it?

3) Java hasn't done research into the problem of mentor-to-trainee bullying, (it is easy to do - just type in google) but the tone, again is that of a bully. "not helpful and almost certainly untrue". Does everyone pick up the "you are a liar" accusation there? It's all very revealing isn't it? 😛

More examples from the "how not to speak to a person" posts. This one's called Swallowed a fly.
You want to see people sacked from mentoring when it isn't their job anyway.

Presumably this translates as "you" (meaning the OP) "want to see people sacked from mentoring" (the suggestion was that mentor's get trained, because so many are failing in their duty from the OP) "when it isnt their job anyway", If the mentor is doing a job that "isn't their job" - then perhaps there needs to be a mentor paid to be a mentor, and they will know that it is their job?

Increasingly people are saying no to mentoring or letting students take their classes because the quality of students has plummeted. Any warm body with 9k to spend seems to be criteria and arsy, rude, ungrateful and unable to cope with any feedback the norm.

Everyone getting the angry tone here from Swallowed? I can understand that teachers do not want to take on extra unpaid work, but I can't understand the critical and cruel remarks that listed here "arsy, rude, ungrateful, unable to cope".... So much anger, malice, cruelty directed towards students. Anyone find that odd?

Is it at all possible ever that the problem might be you?

The last comment - again - the tone is not one that a professional should use. It is accusatory, destructive and petulant. I think these unhappy mentors who are posting on here, are revealing alot.

Spanieleyes provides us with another example. Here we go

Too often, the trainees are woefully unprepared and think they deserve a free ride as they are paying for the placement.

If a trainee is "woefully unprepared" is that the fault of the trainee? Is it an excuse to treat the trainee badly? If you look at the postings of trainees who have left the PGCE due to Personal Mentor bullying, it does come down to "I'm being made to feel bad about my lack of teaching skills, when I am meant to be on the teacher training course to GAIN teaching skills". That is the fault of the teachers not the trainees.

The word "they think they deserve a free ride" - Again, the sneering tone, the cruelty, the malice and the idea that the teacher can "see" a lack of integrity, lack of ability, lack of work-ethic in the student-teacher.

A person who can think like this, is not fit to be a Personal Mentor, since they come to the job with attitudes towards students that are not acceptable and not at all professional.

Thus to conclude - the job of the Personal Mentor needs to be paid, and the teachers who attempt to do PM work, need to be trained to do it. Those who have mental health issues/or those who support the culture of contempt that we have seen from posters on here, really do need to be told that they are not suitable to be Personal Mentors.

If this development took place in education, there would be far less people walking out of the PGCE due to Personal Mentor bullying.
**

Another conclusion - and then I'm off to work and will leave this fascinating discussion.
Yes, the contempt-for-trainee type of Personal Mentors have revealed themselves on here by the manner/choice of words that they use.

But as GermanFrench points out, the PGCE trainees do talk to each other and do compare notes about their experience of each Personal Mentor.

Quote.
I was talking about the mentors that aren't very good, not about the ones who are. A typical example would be making the trainee mark all the exam papers for the whole year group not just their classes.
Quite a few people on my course sadly had very difficult experiences but I wasn't intending to offend any one taking this role seriously.

The teachers of the future are talking to each other, while training, about people who simply should not be working as Personal Mentors, due to their conduct. Can the PM conduct be improved? If the job is properly managed, if the cruel teachers are weeded out, if the is PAID and done by people who have been teaching for over ten years, as their main job..... then YES.. that's the way to go.

You okay hun?

It’s quite hard to decipher the posts with the random bolding but the idea that schools are awash with experienced teachers available to mentor PGCE students so that depts can afford to be picky about who takes on the role doesn’t match the reality in schools.

You could offer to train and pay teachers with ten years experience to take it on, but they often don’t exist.

Hell of a lot of tone trolling going on.

I see I'm meant to have anger issues and then everything I say is put through the Rita Skeeter filter.

Can't be bothered to do advanced search but I'm guessing it's revealing?

I love the idea that mentoring be done by people with over ten years of experience and that it be paid. It's a very good idea.
The reality of schools is that the paltry amount we get in funding for the trainee goes on my time, to manage the whole thing, on contributing towards them having a laptop so they can do the job, and their copying. There's nothing much left over after that.

Thank you Mrs Hamlet - I am glad you agree.
At the moment, we've got alot of misunderstandings, alot of people leaving the PGCE, alot of overworked unpaid angry Personal Mentors, who seem to see their trainee's as "insane" if they react to being treated badly.
Or "not fit to teach" if treated badly.
There is no way that this attitude towards trainees can result in anything apart from alot of people walking away from teaching, due to the bullying from staff to trainee.

My idea is better than the current situation and I'm glad I've got a woman of your experience and attitude in agreement.

I think the most cruel remark from the Personal Mentor on here was the assumption that a trainee was a liar, was a person who didn't admit mental health issues, .... accuse-accuse.... The reality of the situation is that the entire system needs to change.

And quickly too. 🤔

And why don't such teacher with ten years' experience,... exist?
Is it because the culture of staff on staff bullying cause people to leave teaching?
Is it because this culture is allowed to exist, so that the problem of Personal Mentor's treating trainees with disdain, goes on without question?
If you look at some of the remarks on this thread, presumably from Personal Mentor's, it is clear that they don't like being corrected for their attitudes to trainees.

I think that if we got properly trained mentors, with clear and exacting training goals, who are monitored in case they behave badly, and who are paid well to Mentor and ONLY to Mentor the next generation of teachers - the problem of training PGCE students who then don't teach - a real waste of money - would go away.
Time to take teacher training seriously, rather than leave it in the hands of the silly vindictive hysterical accusatory types.

The reality of the system is that it is massively underfunded and you are placing the blame on teachers. If people can't handle pressure and a hard workload then the sad truth is they're not 'fit to teach' in this system because it is endless pressure and workload and we can't pretend otherwise. My point about undeclared sen or MH issues is that we can't support them and work with the person on how to manage them if the person hasn't declared them.

I had a really awkward time of it a while back with someone who had a clear and relevant sen that hadn't been picked up on by the provider, hadn't been disclosed by the trainee and was causing real obstacles - if she had disclosed it and was open to discussing it we could have worked on how to manage as a teacher with that particular non NT condition. That, if you hadn't assumed that I'm a trainee hating teacher with anger issues, is the issue. The providers are taking on people who sometimes are unsuitable entirely or sometimes could do it with a lot of extra support so long as they were willing to disclose and engage with accommodating their disability needs. I too agree it would be great to pay (and more importantly give non contact time to) mentors. I would have happily worked with that student to come up with strategies and explore how she'd coped with life thus far ie. what strategies she'd developed for managing other situations and contexts in her life that were made more challenging by her disability and how we could adapt those to the classroom however we weren't allowed to mention it because she hadn't disclosed it and the provider hadn't picked up on it and didn't want to address it with her when we confidentially passed on our concerns (maybe because she might quit and not pay the next term's fees? I don't know - or maybe because they were just so inept they didn't know how to handle it?).

I had good mentors but they either had allocated time because they were the school's designated person for managing trainees by coincidence or because they were heads of department and had a lighter timetable because of that and were schools in areas with good staffing levels and reasonable work conditions. I don't think either of them had taught for over ten years though and I was glad of that as my subject and the kind of people it attracted had changed massively before I trained at the turn of this century. Of course I can acknowledge some mentors won't be great given the massive pressure on schools currently and lack of time and funding available and hopefully you can acknowledge that some trainees won't be suitable for teaching given teacher training is profit driven and all sorts of providers have been able to pop up and be irresponsible in giving places and taking money from people who will never be able to cope with the demands of the training or the job. My PGCE year was one of the hardest years of my entire life and I nearly quit at several points. It's incredibly demanding training and an incredibly demanding job.

It wasn't my mentor or uni that stopped me from quitting btw or them I looked to when I couldn't cope emotionally or mentally with the pressure/workload/number of professional relationships to manage positively etc. It was my peers (and my doctor for the meds of course and having to be signed off for 2 weeks at one point for 'recurrent viral syndrome' because I caught so many bugs that my immune system just couldn't cope. I also developed hives from dust allergies because I wasn't used to being in such a filthy environment ie. only ever seeing a wipe of table tops and quick hoover of reachable areas of ancient carpet rather than proper cleaning.)

I'm not angry at trainees but yes I'm certainly angry about the conditions teachers are working in and our children are learning in.

who are paid well to Mentor and ONLY to Mentor the next generation of teachers
That will never happen and is also not appropriate. Effective mentoring is done by strong classroom practitioners. You lose those skills frighteningly quickly when you don't teach. I absolutely would not support the idea of a mentor "just" being a mentor.

I also have to say that some people are fundamentally unsuited to the job of teaching. I've had to ask more than one trainee to leave because it was abundantly clear that it is not the right job for them. That's not bullying.

And why don't such teacher with ten years' experience,... exist? Is it because the culture of staff on staff bullying cause people to leave teaching? Is it because this culture is allowed to exist, so that the problem of Personal Mentor's treating trainees with disdain, goes on without question?

According to data it's mainly due to teacher workload and pupil behaviour.

Thank you for your message "Swallowedafly" - there is alot to consider there and some excellent points for me to be challenged on. I appreciate your time.

Again - alot of things to consider there Mrs Hamlet. As you are much more experienced, I take your point that the "only mentoring" job would not work. I guess I was looking for something that would change the current situation.

I would not suggest that to calmly sit a person down and to say "this isn't for you" is bullying. It is - in fact - a responsible thing to do.

However, this "write off the trainee" can sometimes take place, based on false information, particularly if the trainee has done (say) five years as a cover supervisor in challenging schools, but the Personal Mentor does not know this. And writes them off based - not on their experience - but on other factors. It is important to really know a person before you deem them unsuitable, as I'm sure you'll agree

Yes - I hear you on that one noblegiraffe, but isn't the entire point of teacher training - to create a teacher who can cope with the workload and the difficulties in the classroom? Can this really be done, if the trainee feels subject to constant sneering from the Personal Mentor?

It is important to really know a person before you deem them unsuitable, as I'm sure you'll agree
I agree with most of what you say but not this. The last trainee I asked to leave was deemed unsuitable by me within a couple of days because their behaviour was so outrageously unprofessional from the get-go that I wasn't prepared to put them in front of our students. They were told very clearly how to resolve the issues. They chose not to. They made less than a fortnight.
I didn't need to know their background to know that they wouldn't make it in my school. What the training provider chose to do then is up to them.

Many situations can and should be resolved with time. Some can't, and the 1500 children I am responsible to need me to make choices that the trainee in question disagreed with. I stand by those choices.

Food for thought there Mrs H.
Thank you for engaging with this issue.