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The staffroom

Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

Boy in Y4 obsessing with other children

57 replies

Auxurdeu · 24/08/2019 22:22

I need some help understanding the behaviour of a boy in my class, and how to help him.

Last year he started fixating on a new girl in his class. He would always want to play with her, always sit next to her, and he would tell her he loved her, and try to kiss her. She did not like his attention, and kept trying to move away. He would follow her at every break time. In the beginning she was ok to play with him, but then it got a bit much for her and she got fed up. She told him to stop annoying her, and she told him he was not allowed to kiss her, but he did not listen.
We told him he had to respect her boundaries and give her space. He argued saying he was just being friendly, and would not listen to adults telling him that it was not friendly when the girl did not want the attention, and that the behaviour was not appropriate for school. We had several action plans for him to not follow her around asking her to play, and nothing really worked. She moved away due to family circumstances. His behaviour returned to normal and he played like usual with the boys in his class. In spring a new girl joined the class, and the behaviour started up again, but to a lesser degree. The girl ignored him, and generally did not respond to him at all. She turned her back at him and just got on with playing with the other girls. She moved at the end of the school year.

Now, I am overseas and school is back. One week in, and he has two new obsessions in the year above. In the beginning they responded favourably to him, he was just a boy trying to make friends, and they showed him kindness and attention. It soon escalated. At meal times he is seeking them out and sits opposite and just stares at them. He is following them around every play time. He is blowing kisses constantly, waving at them joining them in conversations. He wears them out by repeatedly saying "you are so pretty", or "will you marry me". He has kissed one of them on the lips, and she was very upset because he had threatened to do it, and she had said no dont do it, but he disrespected this. He has been told to respect their boundaries, been told it is not ok to behave this way, he has been told to stop blowing kisses and all the other things he is doing, because they dont like it. They have told him this himself, and teachers have told him. He just smiles and says "but they should like it because I am just being friendly". I have tried turning the tables and ask how he would feel if somebody did this to him, he replied that he would like it a lot.
During a chat we had he asked what he could do if not following them around asking to play, and I said it was ok for him to just smile and say "hello" to them. After we had finished talking he instantly walked over to them and said "hello" repeatedly while waving his hand. When they walked off, he followed, and he kept saying "hello". Well, I did tell him he could say hello....

How can we best deal with this? I feel completely at loss as I have not encountered anything like this before. Our senco has referred him for evaluation, but that can take a while, so what strategies can we use meanwhile?
He seems to have low emotional intelligence, low self-regulation, he seems to lack social skills and understanding of social codes and norms, and have very little empathy. Any ideas of resources that could help teach him the social competences he seems to need?

OP posts:
bionicnemonic · 24/08/2019 23:32

Your description reminded me vaguely of a child I know with a chromosomal issue called Williams Syndrome
williams-syndrome.org/teacher/information-for-teachers

Verbena37 · 24/08/2019 23:34

Auxurdeu have you read up on how autism presents?
Whilst yes I agree the girls need protecting from unwanted behaviour, it seems like a huge leap to assume it’s anything other than a young boy with possible ASD or learning disability, misjudging social interaction and /or social cues.

It concerns me that he is so detached from emotion, and how he justifies his behaviour as kindness.

He might not be detached from emotion; he might just not know how to appropriately show emotion in the ‘usual’ way. His parents might have said ‘don’t be mean to girls’ and he may have processed that as ‘be nice to girls’, which has translated to his understanding of ‘oh - being nice is giving hugs and kisses and saying hello’ and decided to follow and kiss and say hello to the girls.

OrchidInTheSun · 25/08/2019 00:10

Autistic people don't generally behave in an overly sexualised way nor do they typically become fixated on a particular girl and harass her.

He also isn't following the rules - he's been told repeatedly to leave these girls alone and he's ignoring that.

Please stop labelling all abnormal behaviour as autistic.

MiniMum97 · 25/08/2019 00:13

I'm quite alarmed by the posters on this thread who are calling a young boy who is likely to have learning difficulties or other health condition or be a victim of sexual abuse, a sexual predator in the making or similar. Remember this is a young child we are talking about here - he's only 8/9. And children change a lot as they mature. This behaviour at his age dies not mean at all that he will be a sexual predator as an adult.

Verbena37 · 25/08/2019 00:25

orchid, not sure if you have heard of the PDA presentation of autism but actually yes, many children with autism do get obsessed with one girl, one film, one train station etc. They can totally be overtly loving towards someone. Sounds like the stereotypes you’ve heard of are not necessarily helping your understanding.

I have an autistic child and know many autism children and adults and I think it’s fair to say that the presentation of this child could quite easily be autism. When many autistic people aren’t sure of how to behave or communicate, they will quite often mimic what they deem the accepted norm.

Imagine what adults tell their other kids when a newborn is introduced to them.....’ahh give the baby little kisses, ahh she really likes that’ etc.
To an autistic child, they could process that as something you do to everybody when you want them to like you.

The subleties of autism are extremely individual and you can’t just group all behaviour as described above as ‘sexual’.
It might be but it might not be. The boy likely has additional needs and that needs to be assessed first.

Verbena37 · 25/08/2019 00:28

orchid
Autistic people don't generally behave in an overly sexualised way...
Trying to kiss someone cannot instantly be assumed to be ‘overly sexualised’.

ImposterSyndrome101 · 25/08/2019 00:59

Autistic adult here, with a mainly autistic family and there is no way on this earth that any of us would behave like this. Maybe Williams syndrome or another condition but unlikely autism. Most likely low intelligence in some form, poor boundaries and possible exposure to things he shouldn't have seen.

Mamapop1 · 25/08/2019 07:52

Why on earth are you posting about this on Mumsnet?!?

This is an issue you are having that is potentially a safeguarding concern in your profession where help is available. A group (that unless I'm mistaken here) designed for parents is not going to be much of a resource for this issue.
No one can comment on potential send issues without seeing the child and you have already stated you have referred the child and are awaiting feedback.
Talk to the professionals around you about concerns and work from there. If they can't help you they should be able to signpost to external support that can.
If you are desperate for online forum help I would suggest TES online as I believe they have a forum board which would be more appropriate than a group of parents.

Auxurdeu · 25/08/2019 08:34

mamapop I find the advice given here good, including yours. I am also not in the UK, so nothing recognizable about this boy and his difficulties. I will however ask to get the thread deleted when I feel I have enough input.

I am aware that nobody can diagnose him online, but I am not after a diagnosis. I am asking fellow teachers, and other interested parties reading, for advice on strategies at school. Although the pointer to williams syndrome was useful, but not really him.

I think the educational specialist who saw him in spring would have picked up on autism.
I am reasonably well read on autism, and his behaviour does not really strike me as autism, AS perhaps.

OP posts:
Teachermaths · 25/08/2019 08:37

This section of Mumsnet is called "The Staffroom" and is regularly posted on by teachers. The TES died a death many years ago.

Verbena37 · 25/08/2019 09:43

Auxurdeu
his behaviour does not really strike me as autism, AS perhaps.
What are you meaning AS is here?

Mamapop1 · 25/08/2019 11:56

Teachermaths, I think you will find that TES community is still very active (I have just checked and there are many posts from just this morning!!) it is somewhere that is far more specific to whether preschool/primary/secondary and doesn't gain traffic from non education specialists.

This feed came up in my Google news feed (hence my not registering it as the staffroom thread, given the multiple comments about concerns for the girls/if they were my children and not concern for the boy and the reasons for the behaviour).

pilotedgrey · 25/08/2019 12:03

I think it’s disgusting how some posters seem to think Autism is an excuse. If he does have learning difficulties then of course he should be supported.

However, he still needs to be brought up more harshly on the way he treats these girls. If it was one of my DDs or my DSDs I would be utterly fuming.

pilotedgrey · 25/08/2019 12:05

@Verbena37 I think it definitely can be. Especially as the girls have asked him not to. He’s scaring girls.

Teachermaths · 25/08/2019 12:05

@Mamapop1

The TES is known for giving a certain type of advice and generally being a bit backwards. If you worked in education you would know this.

I find Mumsnet staffroom far better for education stuff than TES.

Mamapop1 · 25/08/2019 12:10

I am an experienced teacher with many years of experience in various sectors and roles!! Rather rude of you to be so presumptuous I think.

I will confess that I haven't used the forum, I use it for resource sharing, as I have always looked within my department/school for support in these matters and guidance externally from CAHMS etc.

Contraceptionismyfriend · 25/08/2019 12:11

If he doesn't have SEN he should be supported. However right now he is a threat to those girls. I'd give him a one chance rule.
At each break he is specifically told not to communicate or go near those girls. If he does he's removed from the area and losses his break time etc.

HeadintheiClouds · 25/08/2019 12:14

He needs help, but the kids he’s harassing should have their needs met with equal urgency. I’d be furious if one of my kids was basically collateral damage while you spent a whole year trying various methods with the child causing the problem.
Protect them first, fgs.

OrchidInTheSun · 25/08/2019 12:14

But he's not fixating on a single girl, it's a series of girls. And he's very young.

There could be any number of things going on here but jumping quickly to an autism diagnosis is a very frustrating thing about MN.

Starstruck2020 · 25/08/2019 12:26

Surely this is a question for your supervisor/manager and not an audience of anyone who feels like answering? Personally I’d want my DC teacher to be having a professional discussion and flagging up concerns with a more senior teacher.

Teachermaths · 25/08/2019 12:31

Your first post was rude judging the OP for posting on MN.

She has done nothing wrong asking for advice on here.

SuperFurryDoggy · 25/08/2019 12:31

Regardless of the cause the problem is that these are genuine obsessions. Think of an obsession as analogous to alcoholism. It’s very hard to maintain a normal relationship with the source of an obsession. The best way to cope is total avoidance.

I think this boy may find a blanket “you are not allowed to look at or talk to X” much easier than a complicated set of rules governing acceptable interactions. You can explain the reasons for this in a kind and non-judgemental way.

Most importantly it will also protect the children who are the focus of his obsessions.

TreeSunset · 25/08/2019 12:38

You need to be talking to the parents every day and this is enough to warrant a safe guarding referral to social services or your equivalent as he could be copying behaviour from home.

Feenie · 25/08/2019 12:41

She has done nothing wrong asking for advice on here.

Yes. Because all current safeguarding advice recommends posting the issue on public forums. Hmm

Teachermaths · 25/08/2019 13:38

With a few subtle details changed there is nothing wrong with posting on a forum for information and ideas. Someone on here might have seen a similar situation and offer advice. It would be unprofessional to make the post identifiable (I'm assuming the op has changed some details).