Teaching-not compatible with own kids?

[Ella1980]

I'm needing to get back into teaching ft from a financial pov. Problem is, don't know how I can work teaching hours e.g. realistically at least 8-5 when I have a child in primary and one in secondary. No before/after school club provision for youngest and eldest attends a school 10 miles from home with no direct bus routes. Moving them schools isn't an option.

Good on you for getting the unions in- sounds like there's a lot of toxic practice in primary that would be laughed off the table on secondary. BUT it sounds like doing all of that didn't get you very far ahead of those that didn't, keep that in the back of your mind when someone tries to railroad you into doing something unreasonable.

I have two friends that work in different special schools and they absolutely work their arses off 8.30 to 3.30 but even the one that's a subject lead can be away by 4pm without scrimping, most days. Maybe an intense working pattern like that would suit better? I've been tempted to try it in the past but it's a bit too much of a leap for me at present. Definitely worth a look.

I think you may have to get some child care and suffer the cost, at least until you are established in a school.
I work in primary and I don't know anyone who leaves at 4. That's not to say it's impossible but it would raise eyebrows and if there was any issue with your results then you would be in trouble.
I think primary workload is different to secondary - my DC are in secondary and the marking in their books is far less detailed and meticulous to the marking we have to do. All those tasks that teachers weren't supposed to do like bulk photocopying and displays have fallen back on our shoulders now. There are no support staff anymore so there is no one left to do them apart from the teachers.

Realistically, there is going to be a staff meeting at least once a week that runs beyond 4pm. There is no way you could leave at that time every single day.

OP, presumably some money would be better then none. Would it not be best to take a job as a TA for two years? You would be in demand having worked in Specialist. You could go back to classroom teaching once the youngest joins the eldest at Secondary.

Isn't that a function of the fear of rocking the boat I primary though? Marking policies, 24 tasks etc are constantly under the spotlight in secondary (except in some academy chains which is a whole different thread!).
Maybe it's because there's always a batch of fresh faces for primary whereas in secondary the shortages in some subjects mean you would have to really want someone out (for right or wrong reasons) to even bother trying to make life tricky for them.
I do feel for you guys and it is difficult to act as individuals or small groups but you shouldn't have to put up with such unreasonable expectations of presenteeism. Nothing wrong with choosing to work like that if it suits you (most in secondary do too to be honest, I used to hate taking work home so stayed late) but it shouldn't be so frowned upon if you can't fit the 'norm' especially when the norm is ridiculous. It's a vicious circle I guess.

I did drop down to HLTA for six months in a PRU (severe SEMH) and enjoyed it but financially it wasn't sustainable. Still needed my parents to collect youngest as nobody was allowed offsite until 4pm but then you were actially expected to leave at that time. Then moved back up to teacher but hated it. I do wonder how this HLTA drop looks to Heads on my job apps?

I think it's quite difficult to move back from specialist to mainstream (I am a specialist (resource base), but also on SLT. I can see that an application where the recent experience was specialist would be viewed with suspicion.

Most mainstream staff don't really get special(ist). It's one of the reasons why efforts at inclusion are often rather lame.

^ not in my school obviously, in case Boss be reading

Marking in primary isn't like that everywhere. Research has shown that marking has little impact on students progress.

Find the right school and you will be fine OP.

Of course teachers ‘shouldn’t’ be doing displays, but if TAs are scheduled to be workkng with pupils for all of their working hours then it is difficult to see who would do them?

How much impact does display have on learning, though? I change the posters within mine about once a month and I'm sure nobody notices. Not time well spent other than SLT-pleasing. Most of my colleagues will quite happily tart theirs up for open evening and then maybe change the examples of good work fairly often, but that's usually a case of photocopying the work and typing up a few bits to explain why it's good.
I'm sure there's research to show that display isn't as valuable as used to be assumed, I'll have a look later. I wouldn't want a TA spending time on it in favour of helping with learning, either.

In your position I'd be thinking about secondary. Does teaching primary potentially adapt to teaching KS3? It can be really hard to cover core subjects and Humanities at KS3 or there are cover supervisor roles. It has been fine to leave at the end of the school day in every secondary I've worked in, as long as you finish the work at home. And - shock - displays are rather optional till open evening rolls around and you can get keen bean Y7s or 8s to make them anyway. Something to think about?

Hard for schools, I meant. As subject specialists are best deployed to GCSE and A-level when there's a shortage. Plus lots of secondaries have a fair few kids who are still working at KS2 level anyway.

Displays probably have a negative effect on learning if you read anything about cognitive load theory. Displays are a waste of EVERYONE'S time. I haven't touched mine in 3 years at secondary. In fact I've taken down as much stuff as possible from the walls.

I may be weird but I get depressed by very bland classrooms/looking at particleboard, so I cover them in cheerful wrapping paper appropriate to the season (takes minutes with a staple gun) and then wait till a couple of students want to make a display for house points or whatever. I agree it makes zero difference to learning and that it can be overdone. My current school has no "owned" classrooms so no displays. I love it...

And you make a really good point @phineyj lots of secondaries are either running nurture or opening-minds style groups at KS3 for the weaker/vulnerable students which would be perfect for an experienced primary teacher. Plus lots have their own intervention units for various reasons which must require at least some QTS staff

At least two snazzy Working Walls in Maths and English are apparently "essential" in primary classrooms these days!! 😆

I remember thinking it a sad day in education when a tiny 4 yo with high-level additional needs came running up to me, bursting to tell me all about her amazing weekend with grandma and grandad and for one second I felt like I should carry on with my expected paragraph of green pen following the couple of sentences of a Year 1.

I put my pen down and listened to her. As in active listening.

To me, this is what is meant by being a good teacher although Ofsted may disagree?

I was a school governor for a number of years

Sorry, went off early there. I was a school governor at a primary school for a number of years. The place was deserted by 4.00 p.m. every day that I ever went there. No doubt the teachers took work home.

The point is not that there are many days when you can leave at 4pm (which undoubtedly there are) but that there will ALWAYS be some when you can't.

Are you suggesting Unrelenting that the teachers at that school NEVER had staff meetings, parents evenings, PTA events etc after school?

If OP has no access at all to childcare after school, it really isn't going to work.

You only have to be at school during directed time. Most of my colleagues have caring responsibilities and hotfoot it out of the gates by 3.45. I have an unusual arrangement this year where I get paid to take my PPA at home. Consequently, my work email inbox is full of jolly, collegial missives sent at 1am or similar, as that's when some colleagues are fitting in their work. Working from home is just loads more convenient, and your management team should recognise that, as professionals, you are able to manage your time.
Oh, and on the note of displays, I think that they are really useful and add a lot to the learning experience. It is totally a teacher's job (as opposed to a TA) to create pedagogically sound 'working walls' (and I am not one for doing unnecessary 'extras' just because). I am convinced that my displays enhance learning for the majority of pupils in my class.

I cannot see an an answer to your problem. Logistically you are stuck with the children, there is no childcare and you cannot afford it. In your words there are not many full time teaching jobs in your area and there is huge competition from NQT's.

A lot of people with small kids at my (secondary) school leave early then work after kids are in bed. It's shocking if this isn't allowed in primary! Surely if you get the work done then it's nobody's business where and when you do that work? We only have one night a week where we are directed to stay beyond 3.30. lots are of course there till 6 but it's not a problem if you aren't.

Thanks all. I'm going to apply for some TA roles for the time being ☺

Really interesting thread to compare secondary and primary expectations. My experience in secondary suggests that where work is done is of no consequence as long as the work is done.
It’s pretty exhausting to be a teacher and a parent, but surely the big upside is that you can leave before the end of normal office hours and make up the work later on.