"Parents must not abdicate duties to teachers"

[ASauvignonADay]

www.bbc.com/news/education-46416421 (sorry I can't link!)

"Parents should not expect schools to police children's eating and exercise, or toilet train pupils, Ofsted boss Amanda Spielman will say this week."

Just seen this all over Twitter. A lot of talk also of schools being blamed/responsible for the decline of children's mental health, but that schools are not experts and risk making things worse. We are being told as schools to try and step away from getting involved in some of the more complex mental health/trauma related issues, and more complex safeguarding issues. But with so many other services cut, I feel more kids are going to be left vulnerable as they fall down the gap.

What do secondary colleagues think of parenting education being part of the curriculum?

what part of the curriculum would it replace, and before someone says PHSE something would have to be dropped.

At our year 6 residential I taught two of the kids how to ties shoelaces. How can you let your child get to 11 without teaching that?
It also transpired that the majority of them couldn't make a sandwich.

Some parents are just lazy. I expect they’re lazy across the board, not just with childcare.

What I don’t understand is why they don’t care what everyone else is doing. Where’s the societal pressure to get your child toilet-trained ‘like everyone else’? From what I can see, too many parents would rather do their own thing while the child is occupied by its iPad. They don’t want the difficult bits of raising children, the pushing back on boundaries, the ‘you’ll sit down and do that homework or there’s no game time’ stuff. I’ve brought my own children up while holding down a job - when I go to work as a primary school teacher I’m surprised that I’m expected to parent my pupils too. Shoelaces, buttons, self-organisation, telling the time, knowing their address, the months of the year - children need time and input on these things. They don’t just magically learn them at 18. How difficult is it to teach your nine-year-old their address?!

What do secondary colleagues think of parenting education being part of the curriculum?

I am an ex-PSCHE teacher. Like the previous poster says the curriculum is already packed and we are already responsible for all the stuff that the OFSTED report is talking about dropping from voting, sex Ed, finance, FGM, prevent, revision and study techniques, first aid and I could go on and on. On a practical note for many students for there will be a gap of 15 years before they become parents so advice changes. There is also a class divide when it comes to parenting style and who decided which style is best? We can’t lecture students how they should live their lives we can only encourage them to think through situations and make informed choices. Having read the parenting boards a lot recently (I have a toddler) I have noticed posts where parents, seemly encouraged by HV expected school nursery to potty train their children. In some families HV work with I imagine they have to pick the biggest concerns to work on and so what might be the biggest concern for one family might be far down the list for another and I imagine potty training maybe one such area. As teachers, how do we say you should be doing something when the students may have direct experience of HV/family supports works telling their family otherwise. Teachers are not parenting experts and too often we are expected to teach things with no training or guidance.

I agree Some parents do need to step up and start teaching their children the basics

Shoe laces address phone numbers using cutlery manners etc

And stop expecting schools to do it for them

It's not about funding. Yes funding is being cut but parents need to take responsibility and parent their own children that they chose to have. There is absolutely no excuse for children starting school at 4 in nappies. Parents need to step up! (Some, not all!) School is not now and never has been there for this purpose.

Thanks for the replies secondary folks, it is interesting to get some perspective. I am involved in local authority working, across health, education, speech and language, working to try and improve starting points for children attending school.
As a primary leader I am aware of curricula and Ofsted pressures. Massive!

As a professional the key to my understanding is my child development knowledge developed initially through playgroup leaders courses and then my education degree. . I think this was more my thoughts for secondary education than 'parenting' where I take on board the rational about differing parenting styles.

Perhaps a really hard stance, not toilet trained, no school. Maybe parents would take the time to do this if the alternative is that your child stays at home....or maybe not

As a parent, I've found it actually impossible to buy lace-up shoes for my child. Every single pair I have found (that is under, say, £40 - I am not paying £70 odd for shoes that will be too small in 6 months) is velcro. So it's probably very easy to get to 11 without knowing how to tie shoelaces.

Do non SEN children really turn up at reception not toilet trained? These are 4 year olds? Are they occasionally incontinent or actually in nappies/pull-ups? I find the whole thing utterly baffling.

Yes @Michaelahpurple they do, increasingly often!

Do non SEN children really turn up at reception not toilet trained?

Absolutely yes, they do. And whereas schools and nurseries used to make it a requirement that children were toilet-trained before starting, they are no longer allowed to do so, or they fall foul of inclusion rules. So, there is an increasing number of parents who are taking advantage of the lapse in expectation, and hope that schools will train their children for them.

Do non SEN children really turn up at reception not toilet trained?
Numerous times. I've even had none SEN pupils who are still drinking milk, no solid foods, underdeveloped muscles to chew. No chance of phonics then!

Numerous times. I've even had none SEN pupils who are still drinking milk, no solid foods, underdeveloped muscles to chew. No chance of phonics then!

Bullshit.

If that sort of thing is happening, then is it really likely that there is definitely no SEN? Doubt it.
Also if there was, then bloody hell of course the school should step in. Not much point stsrting a campaign to remind people that schools are not responsible for teaching kids to chew stuff.

I run a pre school and in the dark ages when mine went they had to be potty trained before they were accepted. Now you can't stipulate that so children go one of two ways. The parents being them at 2 and say they are potty trained but here is a stack of clothes as they are still having accidents! Or parents wait until the term before they go to school and ask us to do it. Now I will support anybody toilet training but I can't do it for them in the 3 hours they are with me sometimes not even every day.

For the last couple of years i have sent children to reception who are not fully dry during the day. Our one success was our SEN child whose mum was very proactive and we cracked it in the 6 weeks before the end of term by working together. I've had one this week whose mum has said if he's still having accidents next Monday she will put him back into nappies - she started last Monday so only giving him a week to do it in.

I do think the lack of HV doesn't help - when mine were small I could see my health visitor every week to weigh the baby and have a chat. Now some of my mum's don't even know who their HV is. I also think society as a whole are now so much more busy either working or going to this club and that club - these children have a better social life than me - that parents don't make the time to parent. There is also the culture of 'somebody else will do it for me' which is really sad for the child.

Surely this is a red flag for neglect?
Does it trigger social services to get involved if not already involved?

I feel so sorry for those kids

Surely this is a red flag for neglect ?Does it trigger social services to get involved if not already involved?
The threshold for intervention is just so high. It's got to be really bad for social services to get involved.

branleuse - sorry, but true!

I was the Headteacher at the school. This was a child from a family with little expectation of what their children should be able to do. Definitely not SEN.

What do we mean here, though, by non-SEN children?

It takes YEARS, fucking years, to get a diagnosis, and that is IF you are a parent who

1. isn’t afraid of diagnosis
2. is reasonably well informed about the conditions it turns out your children have
3. have a reasonable HV
4. dont fall foul of what I call the ‘magic requirements’ (they vary by region, but I have for example heard of GPs refusing to refer a child for autism assessment because they are capable of eye contact)

4 years old. A child has to be pretty disabled IME to have a diagnosis at 4 or 5. Many autistic girls aren’t diagnosed until puberty. And late toilet training is common among autistic children.

People blithely say ‘oh but I’m not talking about SEN’ like that’s something easy to say. But how can you know?

And yes the rates of SEN diagnosis have gone up. But take autistic females for example - I never got a diagnosis. The ‘solution’ to my tendency towards ineffective toileting was to reduce my water intake. Schools rules on food and drink intake were strict. Do we really want to go back to dehydrating our children?

‘Definitely not SEN’

Bollocks can a teacher ever know or say that. Shame on you.

Bullshit. If that sort of thing is happening, then is it really likely that there is definitely no SEN? Doubt it.
Also if there was, then bloody hell of course the school should step in. Not much point stsrting a campaign to remind people that schools are not responsible for teaching kids to chew stuff.
Who's this rude, clueless idiot?!
Someone who hasn't the first idea of reality in some areas in this country.

batteries
No shame at all in saying no SEN

Close work with the family; knowing the child; assessing and tracking progress; knowing the developmental progression of siblings; knowing the family background; EAL child

no this child is not SEN

As a secondary school teacher I'm still baffled by the amount of students who cannot read an analogue clock or do up a tie! And again these are not SEN students. I agree, the expectation of parents is so woefully low at the moment and there is a horrific sense of entitlement and parental buck passing that goes on.

It is not schools responsibility to toilet train children.
Parents are often lazy and will do their best to sherk responsibility.
Various governments have allowed this, schools are not allowed to state the obvious and as said upthread it is no longer politically acceptable to say ' get your finger out, do the hard work and parent your own child.'
I often wonder why some people choose to become parents and it is a complete choice. Yes it is hard work and you cannot expect not to have to do it.

As someone with personal experience of childhood trauma, this is worrying. I'm in my 40s now so primary school was a long time ago. A teacher is surely one of the first people a child would (intentionally or otherwise) mention something about trauma; certainly far more than a counsellor/doctor they don't know or have any rapport with.

I think you do an incredible job, even more so with all the funding cuts.

I know the above is tangential to the detail, but wanted to mention it given the OP.