Teachers: do you believe the moon landings were a hoax?

[noblegiraffe]

I was just on Teacher Tapp and found the results from this poll pretty horrifying: 15% of teachers polled don’t disagree with the statement “I believe the moon landings from 1969 to 1972 were actually a hoax”.

What now? Nearly 1 in 6 of us??

Let me word it another way OP?

Why is it so important to you?

Unless these teachers are teaching conspiracy theories as fact then what is the problem?

Some people, despite being intelligent and professional have some pretty batshit ideas. Tis the way of the world. I mean...some people still think brexit is a good idea.

Then there is the veiw point that challenging beliefs is an excellent learning tool.

Imagine a lesson "the moon landings were a hoax" present a balanced discussion, citing legitimate (not wiki!) References to back up your views. I actually think that would be a great lesson.

I don’t know much about astrophysics or rocket science but I do know a fair amount about human beings, large organisational projects and US society. That’s enough to convince me that the moon landing hoax theories make no sense whatsoever and the NASA version of events makes perfect sense.

The film Capricorn One had an elegant set-up wherein a perfectly genuine Mars mission was discovered at the last minute to have a lethal flaw with a single component - known only to a very few people, and hence a last decision is taken to fake it in order to save face in a tiny operation known to only those few. That’s a neat plot because it more or less fits the way that humans behave (adjusting for movie suspension of disbelief), but it doesn’t fit the actual Apollo project facts at all.

Analogously, I don’t believe that Kennedy was killed by a huge CIA plot with Oswald as the patsy, but am neutral on the theory that the actual bullet that killed him came from a stray Secret Service man tripping and panicking in his reaction to Oswald’s shot and that this was covered up by the tiny number of people who knew (it’s entirely possible that the detailed obtainable facts rule this theory out - I haven’t looked into it).

Oh and Henry VIII had three or four wives, but which women they were is a subject of theological dispute. Personally I’d go for four: Catherine of Aragon, Jane Seymour, Catherine Howard and Catherine Parr.

LEMtheoriginal, it's certainly important to the parents. If the teacher has a certain view which can change young child's mind, it's something we should be aware of.

Of course everyone operates on the basis of probability. I think the way the Teacher Tapp question was worded nods at the probability scale in fact. But where does "unknown" come into that?

TheFallenMadonna

There is an element of the unknown in very nearly everything. I don't understand what you mean?

As I said. Different opinions are fine. Different facts aren’t. And I don’t want my children taught by people who aren’t capable of critical thinking.

And it’s an important issue. We have to teach our children to look at the world clearsightedly. To know what is real.

And there’s nothing wrong with things being unknown. It’s filling the gaps with bullshit that’s the problem.

BertrandRussell

I honestly don't believe I am capable of teaching children 'what is real'. I believe I am capable of teaching them to make sensible decisions about when to believe something is real, most of the time. I don't think anyone can do better than that, and those who think they can are deluded.

farce how can you know Henry the 8th has 6 wives but not know the Holocaust happened? Studying Tudor history is unlikely to involve sourcing the marriage records of the 6 wives and even then there is the stupid QI fact that Henry only ‘legitimately’ had 3 wives. So what are your criteria for evaluating enidence? Reading a book? So if you read a book about the Holocaust will you know it happened? I suggest you go and do that so that when you do meet someone who is ‘doubtful’ you can assure them that anti semitism and fascism really did lead to the calculated murder of millions of people.

How would you have answered the question? What weight would you give to the accepted reports and the conspiracy theorists? Does the fact that you don't have the knowledge to critically evaluate the evidence put you in the middle of the scale, or do you give more credence to one side or another?

PinguDance

You're right. I don't know Henry had six wives. I have seen more evidence for that than I have seen for the Holocaust, but isn't a certainty.

TheFallenMadonna

I lean towards believing it happened. The statement, though, is "I believe the ML were a hoax", which I don't, so I would have ticked "Disagree".

So you wouldn't have been one of the 15% then. I think the concern is that with no special knoweldge, 15% of the respondents give more weight, or equal weight, to the conspiracy theorists.

TheFallenMadonna

Maybe, but not as Noble expressed it. Noble places the same degree of certainty on the ML as she does on 5 + 5 is 10, and she expects everyone else to agree.

farce I do get your line on “knowledge” but I think it’s a faulty one in many ways - imagine the case of ‘I believe you were raped but I don’t “know” you were raped’, ok so how do you refer to this: “she says she was raped and I believe her but I don’t know for sure” - well you’ve just let your pal down in court. You may never “know” something is true in the sense of experiencing/witnessing it personally but if evidence all points to a conclusion that you can’t personally verify then you surely move from ‘beleiving’ it personally to a conviction that it really happened - aka you “know” it it to be true. You will then tell other people you “know” it happened.

PinguDance

Rather an emotive example? I can't know my friend was raped.

But instead it was boring old moon rock and now there’s basically no need to go back

That’s where I’m suspicious. Why haven’t we gone back? Setting up a moon base would be the first step to learning how to colonise other planets, why haven’t we tried in 40+ years? That knowledge is dying out and probably everyone who worked on the last mission is dead/retired. That’s a lot of institutional knowledge lost forever. Everything is usually done cheaper/better/faster in the 40 years since but we can’t go back? China and India (but China especially) have been working on going back for quite some time and they still cannot manage it, and in a longer time frame. It’s pathetic and that’s why the conspiracy theories won’t go away.

It’s going to fall out of living memory and then people will really start to doubt it.

The algebra example was in response to this:
"other view points are not wrong because they are not the same as yours".

TheFallenMadonna

Got you. Well, sometimes other viewpoints are wrong. I am not arguing for absolute subjectivity and I get as irritated as anyone by the "all opinions are valid" bollocks. This isn't that, though.

“Maybe, but not as Noble expressed it. Noble places the same degree of certainty on the ML as she does on 5 + 5 is 10, and she expects everyone else to agree.”

Because that’s what any rational person would say.

The amount of voters on teacher tapp is tiny. I find it strange the way it's promoted as the reflection of teacher thought and beliefs in this country. It's not. The questions are leading and it's mostly pseudo research with very questionable results. I think they're running out of education topics so now branching out into other supposedly controversial areas. Give over.

BertrandRussell

Then we disagree about the meaning of "rational".

Well your thinking is going to apply to emotive examples too - If there was lots of evidence, perhaps a conviction, but you didn’t see it would you forever say ‘she says she was raped’ or ‘she was raped’ ie would you credit it as a fact or a belief?

Anyway, the problem I find with ‘I can’t “know” unless I see the evidence’ is that it’s basically the first defence of genocide deniers the world over. ‘Where are the bodies?’, ‘did you see them?’ ‘How can you know I sent the orders?’...etc. Yeah tbh the ML is a trivial example comared to genocide but I agree with a PP that this ‘I can’t know unless I was physically present’ attitude is insidious. And seeing as you said you would ‘understand’ who someone would deny the holicausy I think you’ve highlighted one of the problems with it. It’s not enough to smile sweetly and say - oh I believe it happened, you need to be able to say - it happened, go and educate yourself

I've never seen the moon landing footage - I believe they landed on the moon but whether the footage they showed was actually the first steps.. I'm not sure.

PinguDance

I'm really sorry that this view can be and has been applied in such harmful ways, but that doesn't stop it being factual. When something is proven beyond reasonable doubt, I treat it as fact. When someone I trust tells me something as a fact, I often choose to treat it as fact. That doesn't mean it is a certainty. Sorry.