Teachers: do you believe the moon landings were a hoax?

[noblegiraffe]

I was just on Teacher Tapp and found the results from this poll pretty horrifying: 15% of teachers polled don’t disagree with the statement “I believe the moon landings from 1969 to 1972 were actually a hoax”.

What now? Nearly 1 in 6 of us??

StripyDeckchair

Could you explain what you mean?

Critical thinking is questioning the rationality of opinions, not arguing about whether or not things happened - just the view of cause and effect.

It's far more critical to question why the moon landings happened and the importance of the space race to 60's and 70's geopolitics than to sit and ask - did the moon landings happen when there are thousands of witnesses and physical evidence all over the world (and on the moon).

Critical thinking is questioning the rationality of opinions, not arguing about whether or not things happened

No, it isn't. Critical thinking means thinking for yourself in a logical sequence, as objectively as possible. Does X follow Y? What is the evidence for X? Where did the evidence come from? Is there any evidence to the contrary? Etc. It absolutely involves questioning what is claimed as fact, and I am shocked anybody would deny this.

You have to start from some sort of agreed base, which is a fact (not an opinion). Otherwise you simply bow to opinions and give them equal weight as facts (which then give rise to Donald trump and all his 'fake news' claims). You then question around that established fact, like my example of geopolitics of 60's and 70's.

You have to start from some sort of agreed base, which is a fact (not an opinion).

No. You have to start from first principles, as far as you can. That involves questioning whatever can be questioned as far as possible.

Let's take the example of pointing the laser at the moon. Forget what anyone else tells you. What is actually demonstrated by it? Does it demonstrate that Neil and his mates landed on the Moon in 1969 and left it there?

Well, what is it?

It is a glint of light coming from the direction of the moon.

Does it happen every time you point the laser?

Yes. Ergo, it appears to be in response to the pointing of the laser.

What would cause the glint?

Some sort of reflective object.

Is it possible that there would be a glint of light in response to a laser if there was no reflective object stopping the laser?

No.

Is it possible that it could be a natural object?

Not to my knowledge.

Is it possible that someone placed it there?

Yes.

Is it possible that someone other than Neil and his mates placed it there, or that it was placed there at some other point than in 1969?

Yes.

Is there any evidence that it was placed there in 1969?

Well, at this point, I am told there is, but I haven't seen it.

So, until I do see it, it remains an open question.

That's how critical thinking works. You have to evaluate what you are told, as far as possible. Sometimes there is no certain answer because you don't have access to all the information.

So going through all that (which has been done a multitude of times by many, many others) and you still have an 'opinion' about moon landings?

An aside fact, but the coolest part about the mirror is that by repeating the experiment over time, it has been seen it takes the laser photons longer to return to observers on earth than in the 70's, thus showing the moon is slowly moving away from the earth! About the rate fingernails grow. By computer model estimates, this will cause the earths orbit on its axis to become unstable in approx 500,000 years, causing unpredictable seasons!

physicskate

I already said I have an opinion: I think it is far more likely than not that they happened. What I am not going to do is place the possibility that they didn't in the position of "unassailable fact".

Dangerous. You're still saying it's ok to have personal opinions about facts. My opinion is that this obscures facts and creates a less critical populous who think their (often unfounded and unresearched) opinions are just as valid as facts.

physicskate

I am absolutely saying it is okay to have personal opinions about things other people call facts. How else would thinking and rethinking ever happen?

Dear me.

I'm asking where the first principles you mentioned come from. I'm off to work now but will try to come back later.

One step away from Holocaust Denial, in my view.
"No, I wasn't there so , I can't prove it happened and I don't trust all those people saying it did because I don't personally know them. And, even if I did they might be lying to serve some greater purpose ".
Stay away from stoopid.

Any teacher who believes the moon landings were fake needs sacking!

I'm not a teacher but I'm pretty well educated (post grad level) and a professional. I believe they might have been a hoax and that it is impossible for me to know for sure as I was not there. To be honest I'm pretty horrified at the number of teachers on this thread that believe what they are told without question. I simply don't know if they were a hoax or not and neither do you.

bellinisurge

It's a fairly big step, though. I am not denying anything.

StripyDeckchair

I believe that what we call reasoning begins its development in early childhood, with the build up of empirical knowledge. It then progresses into abstract reasoning. So, "The rain feels wet" becomes "If I go outside when it is raining, I will get wet." We mature in our ability to imagine possibilities in and outside our own experiences and to critique their likelihood, and we call that "reason".

You are being horrible again,

Fair’s fair *Thisis. You’ve been a bit of a pompous arse, so I’m a bit surprised you’re complaining.

I'm pretty horrified at the number of teachers on this thread that believe what they are told without question.

Who are they? I haven’t seen any.

Yes empirical knowledge aka facts!!! Facts are different than opinions... the holocaust, moon landings etc are all empirical knowledge - you either know it or you don't. Empirical knowledge = incontrovertible fact. Just because you aren't appraised of the facts and evidence doesn't mean you can have an opinion, courts have even ruled on this.

noblegiraffe

Touché!

Well, I think we ought to leave it there. I've reached my tolerance threshold for logical fallacies for one week, I think.

physicskate

Honestly, I don't think you are able to grasp what I am saying. I am going to leave it there.

Something either happened or it didn't and it makes no sense to have an 'opinion' about whether or not it happened. That's not what critical thinking is for. You open up all sorts of absurdities if you say people are allowed to debate facts. This gives power to people like Donald trump and his followers. And then issues that are really not up for debate (like whether or not an event happened) become socially acceptable to debate as if it's an 'opinion.'
This.

There's a healthy scepticism, wanting to access a range of evidence (e.g. when making medical decisions). There's a suitable amount of reservations when politicians make grand pronouncements. There's hold a healthy amount of mistrust in the media because there's spin and bias.

Then there's suggesting that opinions are as valid as facts.

The earth may have been a 6 24 hour day creation. But current evidence says otherwise and a belief in literal creationism is not as empirically valid as the wealth of scientific evidence saying otherwise.

At the end of the day, I am a specialist in my field and whilst it's reasonable to have critical debate about authorship of some shakespeare texts, I'd be a bit confused if someone wanted to say Wilfred Owen didn't fight on the front line in ww1 because he might have made it up. (I imagine it's the same for each subject in school)

I don't want a world where lies and opinion are given as much weight as much as facts.

I don't want a world where lies and opinion are given as much weight as much as facts.

I really am not giving lies and opinion as much weight as facts. Really not.

And, of course, I am "allowed" to debate facts, being a free citizen of a democracy.

@thisreallyisafarce - and I really don't think you understand what I'm saying either! Oh dear...