Ouch! Keep banging my head against the glass ceiling

[Piggywaspushed]

I wanted to know if there was anyone else like me on MN who has been applying for secondary SLT jobs for as long as me (about 10 years...) and got nowhere. I must have applied for 40 jobs ( in a 35 miles radius). I have been shortlisted maybe 4 times (not including the four times I have been interviewed at my own school) : once for a DH post (I was thrilled but flummoxed!), the others for AHT posts and once for a post 200 miles away which I got cold feet about and now regret. Failed at interview every time. I find it v frustrating, as I am sometimes told I am not shortlisted because of lack of experience on other schools! Oh the irony! In my mid late forties now , I fear it is now too late. And I am very sad because I really have given over half my life to teaching, am a career teacher and have been told by many that I am a really good line manager and teachers who half know me often wonder why I have not got further.

All we hear about is the recruitment and retention crises but there is a real bottleneck to break into SLT. And , yet, on MN all I keep reading about is how shit a lot of SLTs are...which doesn't make sense as, in many cases, those people were appointed from fields of 40+ (unless it's my school, in which case they are often internal)

Anyone else in the same , or similar, boat want to share my pain? Or anyone else have any real insights into why some people make shortlists and other candidates, equally good (or better) on paper don't?

ps this is staffroom, please be gentle with me

Piggy I think the overriding question for me is 'Why do you want to be a member of SLT?'

That's a deep question... because I like leading others? I like being able to shape policy and I am really genuinely interested in, and passionate about education. Ad I really care about teachers, too, and their well being (which I think might be my USP...). I have real insights into CPD and stuff , which I'd like to be able to do something about. At the moment if I voice ideas, they have no traction because I am not SLT.

It isn't about the pay but is quite a lot about recognition and prestige and validation, if I am honest. I have never been a fade into the woodwork type and am not content to sit in corners twiddling my thumbs . And I'm a bit bored and unfulfilled!

Sorry piggy I got to watching about Dave Allen and I am going to Harry Potter world tomorrow, but I will reply.

Enjoy!

How many schools have you taught in and what’s the status/reputation of your current school. Two exceptionally talented colleagues at my old school both tried for several years to get SLT positions outside of our setting, but when it came down to it, didn’t get anywhere. Obviously no one would ever say but reading between the lines and listening carefully to throwaway remarks, both came to the conclusion that it was very much down to two things - whilst both had over 15 years experience in the classroom and has been internally promoted a number of times, both had only ever taught in that one school, and secondly, that one School had been in and out of special measures and was RI at the time they started applying, SM by the time they’d been applying for a couple of years.

In the end, both made sideways moves and are happier for it.

How about looking at private schools?

I have tried private schools user : I think they are even harder to secure a post in!

twins, I have been at two schools, both local comps : I have been at my recent one for 20 years, but the irony is, I have been jobhunting on and off for about 12 of those!! My current school has the best reputation of nay local state school and is a teaching school : I actually half suspect part of the problem is the assumption that I may not have experience of tougher students, which couldn't be further from the truth , and also - in the case of a couple of urban schools I have applied to- limited experience of students from ethnic minorities, which is true.

twins, it is nice to hear my experience isn't unique though!

I don't want to out myself and name it,, but my job is very niche and specific : a 'sideways ' move would actually be in SLT at many schools ,which is galling as I then don't get it. I am not a HoF so there isn't really loads of sideways to move to... if you get my drift...

I am doing a job application later today for another no teaching role so maybe that will be fruitful.

I’m sorry to say that twenty years in one school will not do your application any favours. You need to go out of your way to demonstrate that you have been ‘outward facing’ and haven’t become institutionalised, perhaps through the teaching school? Running teachmeets, outreach work perhaps?

I do agree that there is a huge bottleneck at SLT. There’s a recruitment crisis right now but those who joined the profession 10-15 years ago are now applying for SLT roles. Additionally, cutting back on SLT is a pretty quick way to save some cash so I’m aware of quite a few HT who aren’t replacing SLT who leave.

We advertised for an AHT recently and got forty-odd applications, with a shortlist of eight. We struggle to get four applicants for some mainscale teaching roles. What the shortlisted candidates all had in common was significant whole-school experience with demonstrable impact. I think I’m right in saying that they all also had a further qualification in education leadership, eg an MA or NPQSL.

I appreciate that you don’t want to divulge your current role but my advice to you would be to speak to your HT about the possibility of a secondment to SLT in your current school. It can help a lot if your current title is ‘acting AHT’ or similar. If you don’t have significant whole-school experience then this is something you could also address.

Finally, and this is only slightly tongue-in-cheek - seriously consider learning how to timetable. Maybe ask your current timetabler if you can shadow them this year. Pastoral and T&L AHTs are ten-a-penny but genuinely data literate AHTs who can timetable are still pretty rare...

Thanks for all that advice buxbaum! I genuinely don't think I could timetable and I really would not want to :it'd be a dealbreaker for me...

I know about the 20 years... sigh. I have emphasised that I have been outward facing : I have worked with a range of other schools (and am a governor at another one)including deprived / RI ones. I have done whole school stuff (SMSC and CPD, for example) but it can be hard to prove impact : I struggle with 'boasting'. And HOY stuff is amazingly demanding but doesn't often produce 'data'.

I have a stupid local TSA part NPQH equivalent. We have no NPQSL provision locally, which is irksome. I have designated safeguarding training, too...

The head I keep mentioning actually just (sort of) retired. the SLT have had a bit of a reshuffle. But the school is quite old fashioned and doesn't do secondment or shadowing, sadly. they did just makes some new temporary(which won't be) SLT posts - but those were all known appointments before hand (yes, it is one of those schools!) . I am highly regarded in lots of ways but the most senior leadership have never seen me as 'for them' and would like me to stay in my corner quietly (cf Noble's post above about me maybe not being 'corporate'; at my school it is more about being appropriately laddish....)

Am amazing number of schools (but not mine) in my area are advertising their SLT roles nationally. So the jobs are there; just not for me. That's a bit upsetting

ps am not allowed t run a TeachMeet! Our TS head is against them as we have our own existing notmoney making model which he thinks is better.But I am going to one soon and so am on the case will also ask for a job while there

I could have written your post:SLE/HoD/NPQSL/ highly regarded in our Federation of Academies...run two departments in 2 schools etc etc...but every single AHT or DHT post in the last 5 years has been a 'shoulder tap' to an internal candidate. All but one post to significantly younger and less experienced teachers...almost all male. I was told to be less good at my job because it suits too many people to keep where I am...Full sympathy here from a fellow late 40 something English specialist.

Thanks cat and some unmumsnetty hugs!

Interestingly, I did get shortlisted for a DH job last May )so close to resignation date) so , although those jobs are thinner on the ground and seem more scary t me) this is now where I may focus my applications.

Another irony , by the way : everyone I have directly line managed has gone on to promotion!

Can you apply to be an SLE? I am an SHY but struggled with SHY applications as,I have been in the same school for nearly 20years. Doing the SLE role means,lots,of impact out of school and I get in schools to meet indifferent senior start-up it has really helped with career prospects and job satisfaction

A SHY ?? I mean A HT and applying to be deputy
Sorry !!

Could you have your job title changed? That sounds like it could be a problem.

missmapp : thanks. I mentioned just a bit upthread that I in fact line manage SLEs (or am due to/have been told I will). the SLEs at my place are all a step down from me in our TS set up. I did consider applying, however, but didn't like the way it was being set up at my TS. There may be another opportunity soon, though : but it could mean a change in time allocation: so, a busier timetable with more to do.
In my TS remit, I do actually do outreach work (I've done less since changing roles but still have the experience of working in schools, even across a wide geographical area). It's not as fancy as it sounds, but I can talk that up in an application. And I have been commissioned for training by other counties, too.

To mention that I work in an unusual age range set up would possibly out myself but I have been reflecting and think that is possibly a much bigger factor in non shortlisting than I know : and is outside my control, frustratingly.

I do always try and find out who got jobs I have applied for : but it has led to probably misplaced paranoia since I don't know their CVs : but like cat says, they all seem to be younger (often but not always male), have only been in one school themselves (and have maybe 8-10 years experience: that is viewed as a good thing by heads because It equals ambition and malleability?), are often from certain subject areas, and , in lots of cases I know of, are previously known to the head. That said, I once applied to a friend's school and he didn't shortlist me! Awkward all round!! At least I got honest feedback there, though!

scary : it actually sounds quite impressive (people go 'oooo'). I had it changed this year. if I ever get to meet my line manager, I plan to ask if my pay can be put on leadership spine : it is at that level ,easily, but is a TLR . I think that might be important but don't know. I think a few of the jobs I have applied for have, unbeknownst to me, been closed shop type scenarios, where my name hasn't been known : some of the local schools have definite networks whereas mine, despite being TSA is quite isolated and insular. I do need to get my face and name better known outside my school, that's' true. I probably used to be better known than I am now!

Maybe I should wiretap my applications so I can hear the discussions ! (unless it is just binned of course...!)

I do hive myself some cheer occasionally by thinking that if most of my internally appointed SLT had applied to similar posts outside of my school they might not have been successful. They would now, of course, with their SLT experience, but I doubt they would have cracked SLT externally.

Interesting thread.

I once worked in a school where all six members of SLT were white, privately-educated men aged 38-45 who liked cycling and all but one of them lived in the same village...

But then again -

• you've been told you don't interview confidently in all areas. Have you considered paying for time with an interview coach? Or getting a friend to role-play an interview with you and videoing it so you can watch it back?

• I think that SLT who actually care about their teaching staff are fabulous, and incredibly important, and ethical, and crucial to reduce the numbers of teachers leaving the profession each year. But I have a colleague who was told that the reason he didn't get a DH post was because they didn't think he had the "grit" to "make tough decisions about staff". I would be wary of talking too passionately in the interview about how much you care about teacher welfare, tbh.

I'm in the same boat OP. Twenty years a teacher across several schools. Years of MLL roles and evidence of making huge improvements to outcomes across a large faculty. I have a masters degree in leadership. So far I've applied for 8 SLT positions and been interviewed for 1 which I didn't get. On paper I usually meet all of the essentials and most of the desirables....

Interesting thought tangerine ! I'll mull that over! Tbh, I think this is a real thinking point : maybe I shouldn't be SLT at all but then I don't know what else to do and feel unfulfilled ...

I lack confidence in interview because of lack of experience in getting to them. do think a few more would help. I did mock interviews as part of my leadership course and was told to stop saying 'I think' or putting myself down so I know I do this! I have that automatic negative response to people who say 'I...I...I' but reading head's applications recently was a real eye opener. the governors I was with all found it breathtakingly arrogant but that's a small, cosy church school. It will have gone down well in a different setting. they still interviewed the 'first person' applicant (had to really: only six applicants) . The male interviewers liked him; all the female ones didn't. He wasn't appointed and afterwards we found out that he had had affairs in all the (many) schools he had led!!

And, yes, what is it about male SLT and cycling or mountain climbing!!?

snorey you too!? We should form a support thread : you, me and cat !

What subject do you teach?

Music. My faculty stretches across the arts and design technology so it's big and has become one of the most successful in the school.

I used to sit on staff interviews as a Governor and the Head overwhelmingly employed those with additional training and qualifications usually in subjects business related rather than teaching.

Most SLT applicants had similar experience but it was those either studying management/accountancy/law with the OU or similar courses that were shortlisted for interviews. They wanted people to hit the ground running so if you are weak or inexperienced in certain areas then it would be worth you gaining those skills.

The only exception I've seen is a newly recruited AHT who only got his position because he had attended every course going. If it was offered, he took it. His actual classroom teaching experience was very limited and far less than any other applicant but his list of qualifications was very impressive he's still a crap teacher but can talk the talk.