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Original poster

Any English teachers around? Re mandatory GCSE requirements.

38 replies

BonnesVacances · 16/01/2018 22:58

DD is off school long term sick and we're trying to find out if she can just take the English language GCSE. Her school have said that she needs to do English Lit as well as English Language won't count on its own (in terms of it being mandatory).

When we spoke to the college before, they said that if DD comes to them in Sept with no GCSES (due to chronic illness) she can do English and Maths in Y1 then A levels in Y2 & Y3. They only offer English Language GCSE, not English Lit as well.

So I'm a bit confused. Is it a case that for English Language to "count" from secondary school it has to be taken with English Lit, but if they do it at college, it's ok on its own? The college course definitely says GCSE English Language - it's not a combined language & literature GCSE.

OP posts:
superram · 16/01/2018 23:07

Could you just not pay for both then only sit one? It’s quite a few exams though.

Original poster
BonnesVacances · 16/01/2018 23:37

They're saying that Language won't count unless she does Lit too and that it's a government requirement not the school's. So she'd have to redo Language at college anyway.

It's very confusing. I've tried looking online but it just says GCSE English must be retaken if you don't pass it, but doesn't specify which English.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 16/01/2018 23:57

English Lit definitely isn't compulsory, no idea where they got that from.

English is double-weighted (sort of, the best mark of the two counts for double) in the school league table Progress 8 measure if also taken with English lit, but that's not a requirement for students to take it, just an incentive for schools to encourage it. If taken on its own, it still counts for the league tables but isn't double weighted.

noblegiraffe · 16/01/2018 23:58

As for sixth form retakes, you only have to retake English language if you don't get a 4 in Language or Literature at GCSE.

percypig · 17/01/2018 00:01

English Language is the one which ‘counts’ in terms of future job and study prospects. English Literature is great, but absolutely not compulsory.

Original poster
BonnesVacances · 17/01/2018 07:20

Thank you everyone who replied.

English is double-weighted (sort of, the best mark of the two counts for double) in the school league table Progress 8 measure if also taken with English lit, but that's not a requirement for students to take it, just an incentive for schools to encourage it.

I think this has hit the nail on the head. We have felt they aren't keen at all for DD to do any exams (she was originally looking at 7-9 in all subjects and now will get a bare pass in one, if lucky). So this explains the English Dept response. Thanks.

OP posts:
Original poster
BonnesVacances · 21/01/2018 15:33

Back again! The school is now saying that DD has to sit English Lit (but not necessarily pass it) for a pass in English Language GCSE to count as meeting the requirements for English GCSE.

They have also flagged up the speaking component as another issue. I had already looked at the spec for this and it says:

"A candidate who is unable to undertake his/her presentation because of persistent absence (whether through ill health or any other reason) will not qualify for special consideration and will receive a ‘Not Classified’ result for the Spoken Language endorsement."

Does anyone know what impact a Not Classified result would have on meeting the requirements for having English GCSE?

Thanks.

OP posts:
LIZS · 21/01/2018 15:43

Speaking is no longer a contributory requirement to the overall result.

YoureAllABunchOfBastards · 21/01/2018 15:47

Spoken Language is a separate endorsement and has no bearing on the GCSE - I can 100% promise that.

Lit entry is for the school’s benefit, not your DD’s. To count she has to turn up to at least one of the papers and write something, even if it just her name

MistyMeena · 21/01/2018 15:47

I'm sure it's not true that lit has to be taken to make a language valid. Much more to do with their league tables, I think.

Original poster
BonnesVacances · 21/01/2018 15:57

Thanks. Flowers

It sounds like they are deliberately lying to us then. The Head of English said it first, we queried it and now we've had it confirmed again by the Assistant Head.

Makes me so Angry that the school has its own best interests at heart and not DD's and instead of encouraging her they are needlessly putting obstacles in her path. Hmm

OP posts:
fruityb · 21/01/2018 16:03

You used to HAVE to do both in order to be awarded your language gcse. That was before the 9-1 syllabus was brought in. As far as I am aware it is no longer a requirement. You could literally turn up and write your name on the lit paper and that would be enough!

They are double weighted as someone else said which is why lots of places do both.

noblegiraffe · 21/01/2018 16:09

Send these to them and ask them for their evidence that their version is correct.

Any English teachers around? Re mandatory GCSE requirements.
Any English teachers around? Re mandatory GCSE requirements.
Original poster
BonnesVacances · 21/01/2018 16:23

Thank you!

So DD only needs grade 3 in English Language or grade 4 in English Lit to not have to take GCSE English at college?

I realise she needs at least 4 in either to meet many university and job requirements, but just in terms of meeting the requirements for English.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 21/01/2018 16:28

She has to have a 4 in at least one of them to not have to resit, but if she resits, she has to resit English language. If you're going to get her to try for one GCSE out of the two, it should be language otherwise if she failed Lit she would have to start language from scratch for the resit.

A 4 in English language is the one normally specified for jobs and uni.

So basically, she needs to sit English language and needs to get a 4 in it. That's what the school should be telling you.

bunbunny · 21/01/2018 16:29

Can you approach the exam board and get a specific answer from them in writing?

The - assuming that they say you don't need english lit - send a copy of their reply to school saying that the information they had given you was different from the info that the college and others that you know had given you, you thought you would serk clarification from the exam board. And look, it seems that they are wrong have been misinformed and that the exam board explicitly does allow students to do just English language as shown in the letter from the exam board enclosed. In light of which please will they confirm that they will allow your dd to just do the English language exam or if not, please explain why they are not allowing her to do something that is allowed, and in so doing, will further disadvantage your dd at a time she is already suffering badly from this dehabilitating illness when you would have thought they would have wanted to support her, not give her an additional kick in the teeth which is what this feels like...

chickensarethebest · 21/01/2018 16:44

We have an entire set that only take English language because we know they are more likely to pass it when they don't take literature. Everyone else does do lit', because they conversely benefit from it.

I don't actually know of a board where the two are tied. I'd call their bluff, ask them which board they are doing (there are Edexcel, AQA, OCR, Eduqas and iGCSE - Cambridge) and a link to the specification because all of the ones I looked at today were definitely English language only!

Sorry to hear DD is not well. If the school are going to be so unsupportive, how about putting everything on hold until next year as the College sound so much better? It is only 12 months, which might seem forever now, but in the long-run won't matter at all.

Original poster
BonnesVacances · 21/01/2018 17:04

Thanks. I appreciate everyone's help.

It's AQA for both.

The exam result itself isn't too important, because, as you say, she can retake it at college if she doesn't get a 4 and having a chronic illness means she'll be able to explain having to retake it, if it's a problem to prospective employers. But college recommended that she at least tried, as a practice more than anything seeing as she hasn't done anything for 2 years now.

She got L6 in her SATS and it's her strongest subject so English is the one she has the best chance of passing with such little time left to study or do exam practice. She would have been a contender for a grade 8/9 if she hadn't been ill. Sad So we're just looking at that as an option to gently ease her back into doing some kind of studying before September.

Yes, it is a shame we're having such a hard time with school and that's a whole thread in itself. But if they're going to try to dissuade DD from taking an exam for their own benefit, it makes me want her to do it even more. Unless it's going to be detrimental to her health.

OP posts:
fruityb · 21/01/2018 17:35

It used to be - maybe that’s why they’re saying it still is

MrsLandingham · 21/01/2018 17:57

As PPs have said, it is utter bollocks that pupils have to sit Literature to have Language validated. We do AQA and the less able just take Language. PPs are also correct that your DD needs a grade 4 in either Language or Literature to meet college requirements.

There are lots of helpful videos on YouTube - I particularly like Miss W's 'Ace Your Exams' as she breaks down answering the question into very clear steps.

Original poster
BonnesVacances · 21/01/2018 18:21

I've emailed AQA to ask them if DD will have to study English post 16 in the following circumstances:

  • She achieves grade 4 or higher in English Language (8700)
  • She receives a Not classified result in the Spoken English component (due to candidate absence from ill health)
  • She does not sit English Literature (8702)

Then I'll have their reply to show the school and that they're lying mistaken. Great idea!

OP posts:
fruityb · 21/01/2018 20:48

Grade 4 is the baseline for retakes. They moved the grade boundaries between summer and retake series so a boy I taught would have passed had he got the same mark in his retake last summer. Grr.

You don’t need both anymore - schools tend to do both as they’re double weighted so the best mark is carried forward. You DID need both to validate your entry but you don’t now.

And colleges tend to want language and not lit so that’s the one that gets done again.

Buxbaum · 22/01/2018 14:03

I don't quite agree with previous posters. The school are not quite wrong.

Literature has essentially been made compulsory by default; partly by the double-weighting mentioned by noble and others and partly by the abolition of the single GCSE English. This qualification previously enabled pupils to fulfil the minimum requirements of the KS4 statutory programme of study for English in one single qualification. The reading of Shakespeare, poetry and contemporary fiction is now only examined by the standalone Literature qualification. A child who is only prepared for English Language will leave KS4 without having covered the full statutory curriculum.

I do, however, agree, that it's nonsense to suggest that Lit 'validates' Lang.

Scarydinosaurs · 22/01/2018 14:08

Speaking and listening counts for nothing. I know of a whole school whose yr 11 cohort ‘forgot’ and they still got their GCSEs.

Good luck- stand your ground! You are right!

Piggywaspushed · 22/01/2018 17:16

OK, skimmed thread.

The Spoken Language does need to be done for an English GCSE to be awarded.... this is note school's faults. This is the government and Ofqual colluding to hold schools to ransom. The loophole if the No Classification result which shows it as 'done' but not passed, which I had to do for a boy who stood there and refused to speak.

I don't know of a school now that isn't entering all students for lang and lit, whereas this had become common in some schools trying to massage up results by excluding bottom sets from lit.

In my opinion, lit is actually better, more fun, more accessible than the language in which there really isn't two years worth of teaching content. But noble is correct that schools want all students double entered for progress measures (again, not really English department's fault!). I wouldn't ay they are lying as such : may teachers don't really understand these fine distinctions.

We were definitely told if they submitted no speaking result there would be no GCSE English awarded : and it's in the spec, too. Please be wary fo some of the pre reform out of date info in PP's replies!

Will go back and read thread properly now in case I have missed something...