How are your PGCE placement teachers expected to act during meetings?

[isthistoonosy]

I've been told I 'take up too much space' in the departmental staff meetings - and tbh I'm not sure what that even means. Its an hrs meeting I typically make at most one comments normally asking for something to be clarified because they are discussing something from last year (they don't make notes so nothing to refer back to).

All I can think is I once commented about the chemical risk assessments (that nobody wants to do) to say I can do them as I worked as a construction health, safety and environmental advisor for 12 yrs so its really no issue for me to do them (i.e. I am qualified to do them) and I have the time.

So would expect placement staff to sit and listen, join in, wait to be asked something ... would it depend on their age and work / educational background?

I'm not prepared to out myself and say what field, but believe me we are a very large multi disciplinary team and have lots of trainees. Secondly we have an exceedingly high level of academic training. Of course some of our students are a total PITA, think they know it all, some are 19, some in their 20's 30's and 40's and from all backgrounds, some have never held down job others have come from a wide variety of backgrounds.
But my old colleagues and I would never describe them (however irritating) as "essentially work experience kids". (we have those as well) because quite simply they're not.

In my extensive experience the more you know, the more you realise you don't know Those of us who are long in the tooth and often at the top of that pecking order are secure enough to listen to others who may be a lot further down the "pecking order".
I don't think we can comment on the OP's attitude in these meetings, we know what she thinks but we don't know how she behaves. I agree if she's coming across as an arrogant PITA then her mentor is justified in commenting but what isn't justified is the view expressed by other teachers on here about PGCE students in general.
Chilly this is not a pissing match, I was simply pointing out that a work experience kid would not be bring home work over 1/2 term or planning lessons.

"for what is essentially their own benefit."
What about for the benefit of the profession? For future generations of children?

We had a trainee who said they were doing it for the £25k bursary and had no intention of becoming a teacher. That was a good one.

One of my fellow trainees is saying something like this. It will be interesting to see if they leave at the end of the training. I don’t think they started out with this intention as hopefully think would be picked up in the selection process.
As a mature student with an existing professional qualification receiving the 25k bursary I’ve made it clear to anyone who asks me that the bursary was the reason why I could consider the training (I used to earn more than this) but if at the end of the year I decide teaching is not for me I will go back to my old job.
It’s inevitable in any profession that some won’t continue when they’ve finished their training that’s just the way it goes. I don’t think there’s any point in being annoyed, we all make mistakes, you really can’t tell if your going to like something like teaching till you actually try it and nobody want someone in a job who hates it.

Oh this one started out with that intention. Top tip: your school mentor has taken on a huge additional workload usually for no extra pay to help you get through your course, so don’t tell them you’re in it for the cash and are just taking the piss.

Missing the point there. noble said their Trainee had no intention of being a teacher.
I too have had an older Trainee who when they were having an emergency meeting for failing, let slip that they were only doing this before they took early retirement for 'something to do' and wasn't going to apply for any jobs. They had in fact, applied to do another course on astronomy. The University Mentor was livid as someone else could have had that training space (not to mention the public money). All that time taken with the Trainee to help them and having to re-teach lessons to the poor students who ultimately suffered.
But that's ok. Please do continue with the view that all Trainees are virtuous...

a work experience kid would not be bring home work over 1/2 term or planning lessons.

You said you were happy to do this because it’s part of your training. But it’s not simply part of your training (like a lecture on SEN for example), it’s part of the job. That’s why I don’t understand your offence at describing a school placement as ‘work experience’ (the kid bit I get, but I was being rather flippant).

No I don’t think all trainees (in any profession) are virtuous some are an absolute PITA and some are totally useless despite extensive input butI also don’t think all teachers are virtuous either. I also don’t subscribe to the be seen and not heard and because your lower down the “pecking order” you shouldn’t voice an opinion or offer to help.
Frankly anyone admitting to their mentor they’re only doing the training for the bursary is foolish and it’s going to put people’s backs up. But it’s inevitable that the bursary makes teacher training attractive especially for mature trainees who have good jobs and that some will decide at the end that teaching is not for them and return to their previous careers.

Maybe noble you have a different understanding of the term “work experience”. We have a lot, they often come for a week, they have no responsibility at all, they are not part of our team and are just observing what’s going on, they do nothing unsupervised, we usually get them involved in the very interesting stuff, definitely not the mundane. It is not overly onerous, we —pull the wool over their eyes— try and ensure they have a great time and do lots of exciting things basically we see it as selling our profession to those who might be interested. We’re so desperate for trainees we bend over backwards to make it good. Most work 3-4 hours a day max and we send them off to other depts if something interesting is going on. It is important that they come, there’s a reasonable amount of maths in my old job and many a scared of maths, you need excellent people skills, and a variety of other things, many have misconceptions about what we do and some will go away thinking “no way” or “actually it’s not as bad as I thought”. I’ve no problem with either view. Basically it’s a sell your profession exercise.
I’m not sure how you train your PGCE students but that’s not how I’m being trained.

I already said upthread what I consider work experience. Unpaid. Given carefully selected jobs to do. Hopefully learn stuff about the job and how to do various things. Not a sell the profession thing, an experience the work thing.

I'm thinking about it, I've done loads of work experience visits. The kids are, mainly, doing the work, at an appropriate level. Stacking shelves, entering data, manipulating videos, making signs, running activities for kids. I don't think your work experience extravaganza is typical.

I'll say it again. Schools are totally strange places to work in. They don't follow normal 'business' procedures and they are a little microcosm of a 'society'
There is a pecking order in schools. The Head and Governors at the top. Then SLT.
Then HoDs/HoYs etc. Support staff even work differently. I cannot just go to an SLT meeting and contribute and have my voice heard just like that. I'd be crucified by them. You just sit and listen.
This doesn't make it right, mind, but when teachers say our jobs work differently to others and everyone says oh don't be silly, you're not the only ones or it can't be that hard, we're not lying!
I can 99% guarantee Anewcareer that in a few years time, you will understand. You may well not still agree but you will understand.

This is why education is such a toxic environment and teachers are leaving in droves. Sadly many teachers accept the ridiculous way that schools operate (often because they have only worked in education and don't know any better). Unfortunately because teachers become ingrained in this ludicrous culture of pecking order and "seen and not heard" wtf! they are actually very much part of the problem, just most of them can't see or accept that they are. I am glad that a young women has been put off teaching by this thread, she will be far better off elsewhere where people are not treated as either babies or royalty when they are just people, neither better or worse than the person next to them. It is disgusting and very wrong and it will implode at some point. You certainly have my sympathy OP.

I agree with the pp above. I feel for you. You sound like you’re actually offering something valuable to both your department and yourself.
People like to call it a pecking order but I think you just need to decide what matters to you. Do you want to be liked or do you want to do well? I spoke up and volunteered and got involved in anything and everything because I loved it and because I cared and had energy that frankly some most had lost. People resented it but management recognised it for what it was and it all made me very good at my job.
Take on board the constructive criticism but don’t let them drag you down

Talking about pecking order, I wonder where people think I fit in when they shoot the messenger for pointing out something that’s simply true whether people like it or not.

I’m a part time classroom teacher with no TLR - I’m bottom of the heap. Guess how much attention is paid to my opinions despite my 12 years of experience in teaching?

I'm 8 month into a 18month course and 2 months into my placement.

This is why education is such a toxic environment and teachers are leaving in droves
Workload, stress, ever changing goal posts etc are.probably bigger factors than 'someone was reminded to consider how muxh air time they take up in meetings'.
Unfortunately because teachers become ingrained in this ludicrous culture of pecking order and "seen and not heard" wtf!
Nope. Seen and not heard isn't the thing. Learning how to work in different situations is part of any workplace.

E.g. i wouldn't invite myself to an SLT meeting but I would chip in during a team or pastoral meeting. BUT i wouldn't ask my head of year or head of faculty a question that links only to my class when others are there because it's a waste of everyone's time (& people who do that in any line of work are infuriating).

I am glad that a young women has been put off teaching by this thread, she will be far better off elsewhere wherepeopleare not treated as either babies or royalty when they are justpeople, neither better or worse than the person next to them
What an exaggeration.

If someone is put off teaching because a trainee (who judging by this thread seema to have a superiority complex given how they speak about colleagues) was given some feedbavk about how they are in meetings then teaching isnt for her.
We spend enough time beimg slated by people for doing our jobs properly

Thanks for the comments lots to learn about. I guess those that spoke harshly are somewhat assuming they know more about me they possibly can and are assuming that a rant on here reflects how I act and speak in work. You know, just like when we moan about our kids on here we all assume that means we treat them with contempt in real life!

As it goes a couple of others from the dept have come to me individually today (I was off yesterday) to tell me the same happened to them when they joined the dept and one of them is the most qualified and experienced teacher in the dept. so I think it is as much a school culture clash as anything else.

Oh, and the school did pick me and my mentor had final say on if he wanted to take me on. Another 2 schools and 3 teachers turned down taking a STEM teacher trainee on, so no one (but me) would have cared if he said no. And they have asked if I want supply work between placements.

Oh and for the foreseeable dept meetings are cancelled - so that's that issue solved, kind of.

Whether the meetings are crap or not you would be wise to comment less and listen smile and nod. In many schools this is the best policy anyway whoever you are!