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The staffroom

Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

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Original poster

How are your PGCE placement teachers expected to act during meetings?

72 replies

isthistoonosy · 17/10/2017 19:23

I've been told I 'take up too much space' in the departmental staff meetings - and tbh I'm not sure what that even means. Its an hrs meeting I typically make at most one comments normally asking for something to be clarified because they are discussing something from last year (they don't make notes so nothing to refer back to).

All I can think is I once commented about the chemical risk assessments (that nobody wants to do) to say I can do them as I worked as a construction health, safety and environmental advisor for 12 yrs so its really no issue for me to do them (i.e. I am qualified to do them) and I have the time.

So would expect placement staff to sit and listen, join in, wait to be asked something ... would it depend on their age and work / educational background?

OP posts:

TheFallenMadonna · 18/10/2017 18:52

Science teachers can be quite moany, to be fair...

Scabbersley · 18/10/2017 18:53

I'm trying to point out that in the pecking order, they are nowhere near they are probably used to being and need to get used to that.

In the commercial world I love it if juniors /apprentices speak up and would have jumped at the chance for someone qualified to do a risk assessment. They sound totally up themselves! Of they are that busy perhaps learning to delegate would be a useful skill

PurpleDaisies · 18/10/2017 18:54

Science teachers can be quite moany, to be fair...

It's not just science teachers by any stretch of the imagination...

noblegiraffe · 18/10/2017 18:57

The thing with teachers is that we spend the vast majority of the time surrounded by children and can go days with very little contact with other adults. A staff meeting might sound like a bunch of teachers moaning but actually it can be very useful to talk to the rest of the department about what's going on in their classrooms.

MaisyPops · 18/10/2017 19:06

The OP has been told they're being too forward in meetings, have slated (here) the organisation of the department and the way meetings are run, have suggested that because they've met their learning goals for the term they should just spend meetings doing their coursework (because just listening and not contributing would presumably be a waste of their time?). And they havejuststarted their training!
I'm trying to point out that in the pecking order, they are nowhere near they are probably used to being and need to get used to that.
This ^^

My trainee attends our meetings but saves discussion for the moments in the meeting when we are all discussing an issue. Thry seek clarification from me quietly in the meeting or me/class teachers later.

They are there to learn. To decide after being told thry are taking up too much air time in a meeting that the meetings aren poorly managed and judge their colleagues the way they have on here is telling. The OP seems to be under the impression (from this post and based on people I know) that they somehow have more to offer and are better than others because they've done some time in another career.

I'm a career chaneg teacher. I know how infuriating it is to see things that I know would have been slated in my last line of work. However, in my first few years I was a new teacher and needed to earn my stripes in the new profession. I don't think the OP gets that yet.

coldcuptea · 18/10/2017 19:11

You have to be seen and not heard am afraid .

KittyVonCatsington · 18/10/2017 19:14

There is definitely a pecking order in teaching that is not apparent in a lot of other jobs. Schools are weird places to work in. I do find that the older PGCE Trainees are the ones who struggle the most with this as they feel that they are experienced and should be treated as such.
As noble has correctly pointed out, the OP is not experienced yet 'in teaching' and does largely have to do what th HoD says. Nothing aggressive about it. It's just sometimes, people don't like to hear it.

Anewcareerforme · 18/10/2017 19:48

Kitty noble said as a PGCE student she was essentially a work experience kid" not aggressive but insulting.
I am a career change trainee teacher, I spent 30+ years in a profession that was absolutely riddled with pecking order, and notorious for it. But in the last 10 years things have changed dramatically, we've discovered that you get more out of staff and also more importantly do a much better job if you remove much of the pecking order and accept that in a team, regardless of rank, experience or salary everyone can make a valuable contribution. No one person can know everything, even if you've been doing the job all your life, someone with little experience "who hasn't earned their strips" yet may have seen something, read something or know something that you don't, and as long as it benefits the job (I'm deliberately being vague as I don't wish to out myself) then you put your ego to one side and listen and learn.
The OP's comments about the meeting in general may be unfortunate but the responses from some teachers on here are downright patronising. As said up thread is it surprising so many trainee teachers/NQT's drop out if this is the kind of attitude shown towards them by what those who are actually their colleagues. .

FinallyHere · 18/10/2017 19:51

Do you see yourself working in this school, after your training is over? If so, it might be time to keep your head down and just get through it. However, i hope for your sake that you have other options, as it just doesn't sound like a great environment in which to be working. I hate meetings which don't focus on decisions and actions, especially when these are not even recorded. I always offer to write up and circulate my notes, it gives me a platform to ask anyone rambling, how they want me to word the decision/action. There again, I do not have any experience outside corporates but who tells people to 'take up less space' in a meeting? Typically, that would be people who have lost the knack of learning themselves.

I've already been told by the school they think I have met my learning goals for the term

I would ask anyone who told me that, to set me some stretch goals or at least to sign off some that i set myself.

Hope it works out for you, OP.

KittyVonCatsington · 18/10/2017 20:05

Anewcareerforme

I agree that everyone should be treated with respect and hopefully, the OP's mentor isn't being an arse about it but a Trainee Teacher is not employed by the school, or a colleague as such. NQT is very different.

To flip side it, I have Mentored many a trainee in the last 13 years and the ones who have struggled the most, have been those who have re-trained from another career. They find it difficult to differentiate the fact that they aren't technically in a job as a teacher yet and often find it hard to be critiqued so often or not fully 'part' of it all. Of course, they also don't have the full responsibility either. Once they have left their placement, the Mentor has to carry on and in some cases pick up the pieces.

As I said in my post, schools are weird places to work in. They just are. A totally different environment and expectations. It's sort of why younger Trainees fresh out of the school/uni experience often find the transition easier. Nothing to do with being patronising. noble used the term work-experience kid to show that Trainees are not the same as Trainees in other jobs already employed. And that idea does get people's backs up of course, as it's hard to go from a career back to the bottom as a student again but that is essentially what training to be a teacher is.

Chillyegg · 18/10/2017 20:07

This half term I'm planning 6 lessons from scratch and marking 100 books, and I'm happily taking it on as its part of the training, I doubt there's a "work experience kid" out there who is doing this.
Erm I do double that in a week and I'm a TA.
Schools are weird places I'm hoping to do my pgce soon, but with all my years working in schools I wouldn't as a student say much unless asked.
I think it's rude and narrow minded that the staff don't acknowledge your experience . But then also they've only known you a few weeks prove your self and believe me everyone will be flocking to your feet!

noblegiraffe · 18/10/2017 20:12

Work experience kid - someone unpaid who turns up for a few weeks, does carefully chosen tasks under supervision in the hope that they learn something then goes again.

Obviously with a PGCE student there's more to it than that and it's harder work, but they aren't hired, they aren't consultants, they are there to learn how to do the job.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

teaandbiscuitsforme · 18/10/2017 20:21

I think it’s also important for trainees to remember that they haven’t been chosen by the school or gone through any kind of selection procedure by that school. Also the team that they have been placed in might not have wanted a trainee but the SLT have decided to take students. It’s a huge time commitment for anybody mentoring.

Yes every person entering each school should be treated with respect but trainees are not going to be seen as anything other than transitory adults working in the school for what is essentially their own benefit. They come and go so quickly and there are normally more to follow.

Anewcareerforme · 18/10/2017 20:23

"Trainees in other jobs already employed"
Our trainees were also not employed they are university students, not treated as if they've left their brains own the work doorstep.

KittyVonCatsington · 18/10/2017 20:38

Our trainees were also not employed they are university students,

Interesting. What area was that in and was that a sandwich placement? And were they mature students who had already had another career and would you have taken kindly to one of them telling you how to do your job? I'm sure the respect went both ways and hence a good experience was had be all.
Look, I appreciate that as a Trainee Teacher yourself, you have taken some comments above personally but just like you are talking from your side, we are talking from both sides and there are Trainees that can be arrogant and difficult to 'work' with. We have no idea if the OP is one of them and I am sure that they want to do well but it doesn't make others' viewpoints any less valid.

Scabbersley · 18/10/2017 20:56

'work experience kid'

Fucking hell

I have shown dd1 this thread and the other one about teaching apprenticeships. She's been totally put off teaching, thank goodness.

TheFallenMadonna · 18/10/2017 20:58

She's been put off teaching by a thread on which teachers defend a high level of academic achievement for the profession?

Scabbersley · 18/10/2017 21:01

The attitude towards trainees is so, so awful. You werent good enough with no degree, as a pgce you might be too cocky. You are welcome to it!!

TheFallenMadonna · 18/10/2017 21:05

The comments on this thread are in response to the OP who seems to have been told (gently) that she might be. They are not generalised to all trainees.

MaisyPops · 18/10/2017 21:09

No one person can know everything, even if you've been doing the job all your life, someone with little experience "who hasn't earned their strips" yet may have seen something, read something or know something that you don't, and as long as it benefits the job (I'm deliberately being vague as I don't wish to out myself) then you put your ego to one side and listen and learn
I agree entirely. Trainees offer lots. I love working with them.

My point was that as a trainee teacher (even one with lots of experience in another related field), I wouldn't have spoken about my colleagues the way the OP has on here. If they demonstrate a fraction of the attitude they have on this thread then I can see why thry might be rubbing colleagues up the wrong way.

I still have days where I look at things in schools and think 'only in schools'. It doesn't mean I would decide I know better than senior leadership jist because we would have done it differently in my previous career.

There is a pecking order but that doesn't mean people are saying trainees offer nothing and should never speak. It's more 'you are new to this and need to know when to step back, learn and reflect'.

Knowing when to speak/not speak in situations is a basic part of the job (as I wish someone would tell 'that' member of staff who has lots of specific questions at the end of ttaining that has already finished 20 mins late)

PurpleDaisies · 18/10/2017 21:10

The attitude towards trainees is so, so awful. You werent good enough with no degree, as a pgce you might be too cocky. You are welcome to it!!

The attitude towards trainees is generally really positive. We really like ours unless they're arseholes which is pretty unusual.

I also think teaching should be a graduate profession. I don't care if that's controversial.

If your dd is put off by reading two threads, it's really not the profession for her.

KittyVonCatsington · 18/10/2017 21:10

The attitude towards trainees is so, so awful

Nope. I have had many a wonderful Trainee that I am still in contact with and have even employed some in the past, shock horror! Does not negate the fact that there are some people who are difficult to Mentor. Or that some Mentors are arses.

Scabbersley · 18/10/2017 21:25

Knowing when to speak/not speak in situations is a basic part of the job

She offered help

PurpleDaisies · 18/10/2017 21:26

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't more to it than a simple, short offer of help...

MaisyPops · 18/10/2017 21:46

Scabbersley
But there is a differenve between I don't mind offering to do X if it helps and I have lots of experience in all these other jobs so it makes more sense for me to do them.

I find it hard to believe a simple offer of help would lead to someone having a diplomatic word.

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