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The staffroom

Whether you're a permanent teacher, supply teacher or student teacher, you'll find others in the same situation on our Staffroom forum.

Original poster

Bbc article about unqualified teachers

280 replies

rollonthesummer · 04/04/2015 11:56

The tories are defending it by saying there were more unqualified teachers under labour anyway...?!

A Tory spokesperson says...

"There are some brilliant teachers who have not got qualified teacher status - nuns, great linguists, computer scientists, engineers and other specialists that inspire their pupils.

Nuns?!

I don't know of any unqualified people in schools near me that sound like that list. The ones I know are very young-no time to have been a nun, great linguist or successful in business- and have not yet passed NQT for various 'unknown' reasons.

OP posts:
ArcangelaTarabotti · 07/04/2015 15:07

Hag sounds like a great rule* My uni tutor had been a HoD in a naice school, and when she had DC went to work in a low-rent uni where she could work around her DC. (My obs were planned for days she needed to get away early to collect her DC for various reasons). She had no up-to-date knowledge of her subject (MFL) and no experience in a challenging school. Nice work if you can get it and have no integrity.

fourteen · 07/04/2015 15:54

Bonsoir to quickly answer your question, I think you're either a natural teacher or you're not. The ones with aptitude hit the ground, realised they needed to wise up pretty quickly and learned from those around them in their first jobs.

The ones who weren't natural teachers hopefully either didn't get jobs, didn't stick at the ones they did get, or scraped together just enough knowledge and experience to muddle through. I suspect most fell into the latter category.

What amazed me about the other students on my course was the lack of general knowledge, lack of interest in the world around them and the fact that some had never read a book for pleasure. Not what I expected from people training as teachers at all.

Bonsoir · 07/04/2015 15:59

Scary stuff, fourteen.

I am on the whole extremely pleased with my DD's primary education and she has the good fortune to have received instruction from teachers trained in the French, British and Spanish systems (and, marginally. US and NZ). There are, indeed, "natural" teachers out there - the most memorable and effective class teacher my DD has had was an actress before becoming a primary school teacher.

DuelingFanjo · 07/04/2015 16:04

is there a link to the article?

DuelingFanjo · 07/04/2015 16:07

Ah - this one?

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 17:00

Bonsoir, given that a number of posters on the thread are in favour of schools employing unqualified teachers, it doesn't take a great leap to see support for not bothering with ITT at all.
Perhaps I was just lucky - my subject tutor for PGCE was an extremely well respected practitioner in the field and even now most teachers I know in my subject area have at least one of his books.

Bonsoir · 07/04/2015 17:08

That isn't the logic espoused on the thread, EvilTwins. The logic espoused on the thread is - given current dodgy ITT/PGCE provision, is it useful to insist on teacher qualification? It goes no further.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 17:23

What an enormously patronising post, Bonsoir. Is it possible, do you think, that different interpretations are possible?

Bonsoir · 07/04/2015 18:05

It's not patronising! It's just a clarification of the issue at stake. In a general sort of way - not just on this thread - the world at large believes that teachers ought to be well trained professionals. However, current training programmes leave many people - including those who have recently partaken of such training - dubious as to their value.

The real, urgent issue is how to ensure teacher training is high quality, up to date, relevant and that standards are ensured across providers.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 18:13

It goes no further - who are you to say that?

Plenty of posters on this thread (which is in The staffroom, by the way, not AIBU) question the value of a teaching qualification.

There may be a different focus in the wider world, but this thread is about an article discussing the rise in unqualified teacher numbers, not about ensuring ITT is consistent and useful.

Bonsoir · 07/04/2015 18:17

I don't know why you are so keen to pick a fight about something no one on the thread (or in any RL situation I have ever encountered) disputes - the need for great professional training for teachers. You seem quite confused, EvilTwins.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 18:25

I suggest you go back and read some of the earlier posts about PGCE/QTS not being necessary.

I am a bit sick of people, many of whom do not work in education, jumping in with their anecdotal "evidence" about how they know this fabulous teacher who never did a jot of training in their lives. It derides the profession, and goodness knows we've been dirided enough under the present government.

Teacher training does need to be looked at. I do not know the answer. I had a very good experience on PGCE. I get that others did not. This does not mean that schools should be allowed to employ unqualified teaching staff, which many are, and which is what this thread is about.

ArcangelaTarabotti · 07/04/2015 18:28

given current dodgy ITT/PGCE provision, is it useful to insist on teacher qualification?
precisely - completely encapsulates the point.
If teacher training were adequate, there would be an argument for qualification, unfortunately the training is not currently fit for purpose.

Bonsoir · 07/04/2015 18:29

Given the current state of teacher training provision schools would be well advised not to discount applicants for teaching jobs with alternative qualifications.

This is not a desirable state of affairs.

ArcangelaTarabotti · 07/04/2015 18:30

'dirided' (sic) Grin

Ionacat · 07/04/2015 18:43

The best education systems in the world take time to train their teachers. Finland tends to be lauded as one of the best education systems and their teachers are educated to masters level. Instead of saying that training is a waste of time, then we need to look and revamp teacher training completely so that it is relevant and produce skilled teachers. However this is unlikely to happen as educational policy is based on a whim of a politician and universities are distrusted, and to have teachers that might question policy as it isn't based on any research wouldn't do at all.
It is one thing to say have a musician come in and train choir once a week, a maths specialist deliver lectures to an A-level group, hairdresser teaching vocational learning. However do you want an untrained teacher teaching your DC in primary? Coping with a wide range of abilities, teaching reading etc. without any training? This is what the government have allowed and with budget contraints, more and more schools will look to use unqualified staff. Schools used to be able to employ unqualified staff IF they proved that they couldn't find a suitable qualified teacher, now they can just go ahead and employ them. Please note that lots of private and public school teachers DO have QTS, and those that don't I suspect teach specialist subjects in secondary where they aren't jumping through the latest hoops, trying to engage a wide variety of pupils, managing class sizes of 30 plus, some with special needs, differentiating 3 to 5 ways and trying to get their pupils to make better than average progress!

Legalconfidence · 07/04/2015 18:44

Interesting thread.

I'm an "unqualified teacher" and it's quite a derogatory term.

I'm qualified to do what I do (a specialist subject where I come in as a so-called "expert") because I have a five-year track record of continual improvement to my subject. But I'm not qualified to teach general primary and wouldn't dream of doing it. I could of course learn to do it... but would need to go on a course to do so....or do school direct.

The children have to do some maths at the beginning of my lesson. I really enjoy helping them with the answers - and I'm very good at it - but that's nothing like knowing how to teach maths!

In summary, my subject doesn't require paperwork, learning objectives, big data, knowledge of phonics and OFSTED don't care overmuch about it so I had the freedom to learn on the job.

Ionacat · 07/04/2015 18:45

Sorry seem to have cross posted. So what we should be doing as teachers, instead of letting unqualified teachers teach, we should be pressuring the government/unions to campaign for better teacher training.

Legalconfidence · 07/04/2015 18:50

Hi Ionacat, I'm just one person but here's me....

"teach specialist subjects" - tick
" in secondary" - no
"they aren't jumping through the latest hoops" - very few hoops and I'm sort of a hoop inventor anyway
"trying to engage a wide variety of pupils" - tick
"managing class sizes of 30 plus" - tick. 60 sometimes.
"some with special needs" - tick
"differentiating 3 to 5 ways" - tick - more than that.
"and trying to get their pupils to make better than average progress!" -tick

I know a lot about my subject and an awful lot about special needs and inclusion. But I wouldn't ever attempt to teach English or Maths to 30+ kids at a time.

A thought - ideal teacher training would be to teach one child at a time? Then two? Then three? Then four? Till you have 36 and you somehow have to keep some of the magic you had with four? Seems to me the problem with teacher training is that so much of it is about managing the workload and class-sizes.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 18:53

Oops. derided Blush

I do not want to pick up the pieces when shit unqualified teachers who have never walked into a classroom before come in from whatever prior career they may have had with the assumption that anyone can do it. They can't. A proper teacher training year, if nothing else, gives the "anyone can do it" brigade a chance to see whether or not they can do it without causing too much damage.

I would not want my yr 11 DC taught by a new, unqualified teacher who didn't last the year because actually it turned out to not be as easy as they assumed. That goes for Teach First as well. DH works for a city firm who has a "keen interest" in Teach First - by which they mean that they offer TF teachers internships in the summer holidays and then offer them jobs once their TF commitment (2 years) is up. Apparently they like people who spend a couple of years "giving back". I have worked with enough people who left the private sector because they wanted to "give back" and discover fairly quickly that they're not cut out for it. A training year should ensure that people like that realise sooner rather than later. An unqualified teacher, thrown straight into to Set 4 Yr 10 has the potential to do a hell of a lot of damage.

Legalconfidence · 07/04/2015 18:58

"An unqualified teacher, thrown straight into to Set 4 Yr 10 has the potential to do a hell of a lot of damage."

Fair point.

I learnt by doing one session a week then spending about three days thinking about talking about it!

Do people who've been in the army, etc, really just walk in to a history class and start teaching full time without any training whatsoever? I'd have thought there were more people with my sort of story.

Legalconfidence · 07/04/2015 19:02

"So what we should be doing as teachers, instead of letting unqualified teachers teach, we should be pressuring the government/unions to campaign for better teacher training."

I think that instead of describing us all as "unqualified" and trying to replace us, you should campaign for better teacher training. I can't find a TT course I'd want to do for my specialism. It doesn't help that I could design and give such a course (because teaching adults is easy, frankly, compared with what my colleagues at primary do day in day out) so I would have pretty high expectations.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 19:04

Academies are at liberty to employ whomever they choose, so yes, it can, and does, happen.

At my school, recently (ish) we had an unqualified teacher teaching MFL. Not a native speaker, so I'm not sure why he was given the job in the first place. He left, eventually, with stress. He's a nice chap, but wasn't in the right job for him. Not fair on him, or on the students who failed their GCSE that year.

EvilTwins · 07/04/2015 19:06

Legal - what is your specialism? There are certain courses which have died out under the current government thanks to initiatives and measures like EBacc and Progress 8, and the subsequent impact on curricula.

TheFallenMadonna · 07/04/2015 19:08

We should be training teachers much more effectively than we are. I have recently worked with two training providers, and one is considerably better than the other. The trainees are more reflective, and the course leaders more proactive, and more demanding of the partnership schools. I feel that as a mentor, I am really adding to my own professional learning, and I am a jaded very experienced senior teacher.

However, good teacher training is important because it is more likely to produce good teachers, and that is all that matters. It is the responsibility of school leadership to ensure that our teachers are effective. It does not matter whether those competencies were developed in conventional or unconventional ways. Insisting on QTS will not ensure that teachers are effective. Robust performance management and ongoing professional learning will do that. Improving the quality of ITT would undoubtably help ensure that people can make a good start in the profession, which will help withheld retention of staff who have the potential to be successful in it.