The Madness of Gove - discuss

[LizzieVereker]

Explore and analyse the extent of the the Education Secretary's insanity. You must support your answer with evidence (despite the fact he doesn't).
Gove's latest "plan"

Tamer so we shouldn't question regression or why children are losing skills when starting secondary?

Apart from anything else, a sats paper bears very little correlation to a GCSE. The whole system is a house of cards.

I agree-there are lots of reasons why progress might not be made that have nothing to do with the teaching. One child in my class lost his dad-he died suddenly age 25, his mum was pregnant. Another boy was taken into care, away from his siblings as well, another fell very ill. I can't imagine the thought of them making x levels progress was upmost in their minds.

Tamber i thought that is what teachers were supposed to do, exactly that. Get a target in line with a childs capability and try to achieve it within a time span and if the target hasn't been achieved, then question why that target hasn't been reached and adjust strategies, provide more support, change teaching methods, provision etc to enable target to be reached.

I've just written to Gove to ask whether my son's school is correct in thinking that a child who is ill during his A-level year is now barred from repeating the year, because of the recent cuts.

They are adamant that this is the case. No exceptions for physical or mental health, disability, or medical advice.

I hope they have the wrong end of the stick here, because you know what? Not everyone can time their illnesses to fit in with the education schedule.

Bird i agree there are some circumstances which are out of a teachers control and a child might well require extra support from outside agencies etc, etc. Which is why i said most i am sure that does not account for all 38%.

Claw, if the target is fundamentally flawed to begin with then all the support in the world won't help a child reach it.

Of course you question why they are not getting there and change things to give support. The child however has to make the effort it doesn't 'happen' to them. Maybe they discover the opposite sex and find a social life more important, maybe they have just had enough of school, maybe they are anti authority. There are many lovely, successful adults who were failures at school, many who were expelled from several private schools! Not everyone wants to fit into their allotted round hole!
I have tutored, very successful in most cases, but not if the child doesn't want to be tutored and makes no effort. It isn't enough to have the intelligence and the parental support if the child is completely anti the help!

Aharddays, why is it fundamentally flawed?

My uncle died in his 80s still with a dreadful stammer got in his infant class with a teacher who expected him to reach his targets- all from the days that Gove would like to go back to!

Actaully, Claw, doesn't that look like a pretty fair bell curve? You could easily have a curve centred around 'grade C' with roughly a third of level-4 children making that grade, a third above and a third below.

Or does no grade-4 child ever get above the expected C in maths and English?

Bugger. Actually. I can spell after coffee in the morning.

Tamerb, So you are saying that 38% of secondary school children fail to progress at the average rate because they don't make the effort and cant be bothered. (obviously allowing for the small percentage who have other difficulties already mentioned) and nothing can be done for those children to change that.

So what happens if dc fail the test? As I see nothing so what is the point?

I can't find him funny anymore.
He has too much power.
He scares me :(

Sorry posted too soon.

Apart from costing the tax payer another shed load of money or are the companies who are going to run this latest exam going to be doing it for free?

Quite a few reasons why the targets might not be accurate. I shall speak from my own subject's perspective (English).

1. Sats papers don't test many of the skills tested at GCSE, and vice versa. Look at the 2013 reading markscheme (it's online) and then compare it to a GCSE English language paper and markscheme. Obviously, a 16 year old should be expected to do more than an 11 year old, but even so...most sats questions are worth 1 mark. Many involve multiple choice. The highest number of marks awarded is 3. A GCSE paper has fewer questions, each worth a lot more marks (one on the reading paper is worth 16 marks). Students have to write at length, compare substantial non- fiction texts (the sats one includes fiction) and have no multiple choice options.
2. Writing is no longer assessed externally at ks2, but relies on teacher assessment - teachers who themselves have targets to meet. Most teachers don't inflate ks2 writing scores, but a few do. Can't blame them really. But at GCSE writing is externally assessed.
3. KS2 levels come with sub levels - eg a pupil can be a 4a, b or c. Clearly a 4a pupil is stronger than a 4c pupil. But both are given the same target of C and the school is given no extra credit for getting the 4c pupil to get the C, even though there was more work to be done. And there are no allowances made for the fact that a 4c student might be less likely to get a C than a 4a student.

Bird i am going on statistics, i don't have the stats for how many children with level 4 in math and English then go on to get levels above C or how many children not getting a level 4, get a C grade for that matter.

However, I should imagine, like everything else there are always a few exceptions to the rule.

Wherever did I say we can't change that?
However, we won't change it with Gove's methods- a recipe for disaster and pretty scary. I am glad mine are through it, but still have an interest- I want a decent education for all.

Ahardday, I am looking at it slightly differently a level 4 at primary is the 'average'. A level C GCSE is the 'average'. Which means 50% have reached/or are expected to reach.

If you believe that the system is flawed as you explained, the target of average is flawed and doesn't take into account children not actually achieving average level 4. Do standards or the average then need to be dropped, rather than increased?

Tamer, you appeared to be saying children were failing as they were not making the effort or couldn't be bothered and there wasn't much a teacher could do, if this was the case. Apologises if i misunderstood.

Me Gove is dangerous because he doesn't trust teachers only exam results.

DDs SATs are crazy L5 for English (with a scribe, by 1 mark)
L4b for maths - she's dyslexic, tables and mental arithmetic aren't her thing.

So she's supposed to get a B for English and a C for maths.

Quite likely she'll get a C for English and an A for maths (her school have known this since Y8, but they can't be trusted to know their pupils better than the system!

He wants to be PM and he had spotted the way is to be all forceful about education, appealing to the Old Tory party and big business at the same time? Old Tories remember lots of discipline, Latin and chanting dates in History. Big business want worker drones who can fill their call centres. Neither of like the (admittedly flawed) LA system of education or the fact that students are encouraged to think for themselves. I don't think he actually gives a stuff about what happens in schools but it's a great way to sweet talk those who vote for the leader and keeps him in the headlines.

He's a fecking genius, is Gove, more's the pity. I hope he goes OTT and gets disowned before his leadership bid.

I am just saying that children are not robots and you can't just make them do long hours, drill them and expect them to meet targets. There is a huge mental health problem with children and young people, it will get worse if we treat them like a 'human resource' where you set the target, put it in one end and they churn it out the other! I don't know why we want this sausage factory system of education when we at least have a name for inventiveness, thinking for ourselves etc. many of the most successful people in the country were complete mavericks! Testing 4 yr olds is madness, setting them up for failure when they are little more than babies!

DS2 'ought' to be getting As in English, maths and science. But as he discovered other interests in secondary, he is likely to work hardest and get A*/A in drama, dance and music (he wants a career in that direction).

As he is only medium bright and has limited time, that will probably mean a drop to Bs in science, maths and English. I'd call that a very successful school, but Gove won't.

His dyslexic friend is predicted a similar mix of stellar results in arts subjects and mediocre results in SATs ones.