Debating the monarchy's relevance, reform and public accountability in modern Britain

[LipglossAndLies]

Welcome to this thread! 👋 I am hoping it provides a dedicated space to discuss and debate the relevance, utility, and future of the institution of monarchy in modern times.

To help make this a welcoming space for genuine discussion, I would like to encourage everyone to follow a few simple guidelines:

💬 Respectful Challenge, Not Nastiness: let's keep the focus entirely on the ideas, not the people posting them.

👀 Focus on the roles, not the people: This thread is about governance, constitutional law, economics, and the function of a head of state. I think it would help to use the official roles and not personal names to keep the conversation completely agnostic.

🙏 Gossip free: Please avoid discussing personal family drama, media feuds, or the private lives of individual family members. There are plenty of other threads for that!

💁‍♀️ Report or ignore: If you feel someone is not commenting in good faith, or is trying to provoke a hostile reaction as it will help keep the conversation on track.

To kick off the debate, for me I would think its time for significant structural reform. Recent years have highlighted major blind spots in how official state roles such as official trade or investment envoy appointments are handed out, funded, and scrutinised by the public. When individuals holding these titles face serious scrutiny over their expenses, or how they utilise state-backed influence, it reflects heavily on the entire institution.

If the monarchy is to survive in modern times, it needs to move past a culture of internal deference and accept rigorous financial oversight, auditing, and transparency as any other government body receiving taxpayers money.

I would like to see their wills. Openness and transparency under the law as a public document, just like the rest of our wills. Can you as a non Royal decide that your will/estate value is never seen after your death? No.

I really just want to see how many mistresses and gigolos they all had, together with children out of wedlock and any other interesting titbit that we should be able to see. Call it nosiness or curiosity, whatever!

Why not? Who decided on this level of secrecy and why anyway? 10 points for the correct answer.

Good, I aspire to be like them and not have to pay it. Maybe if I put on a tiara.

Though to be honest, get rich enough and you can find enough loop holes in the legislation that you dont pay it anyway.

Why should you be entitled to see the details of their out of wedlock kids, and Dirty deeds.

The wills yes, why not, same as everyone else. But they are entitled to as much privacy in their private life as me. Though I would see them held to the same laws as us so any of those dirty deeds are illegal and they should be punished.

Down with the monarchy. Up with the Republic!

Oh FGS, we would see to whom they left their loot, and do the detective work from there about the dirty linen! I reckon there are lots of skeletons in cupboards all over the RF.

Anyone can do the same nosy speculation WRT a non Royal's will, but surely you know that already, so privacy only applies to the RF. See?

Do you often look up the wills of your friends, neighbors and relations and scour them for odd bequeaths so that you can spectate on their personal lives?

Odd hobby.

Famous people, those in the news, and occasionally a distant relative. Of course I do if I feel like it. Why not? They are public documents.

The issue is not with me, it is with the secrecy of the Royal Family's wills. No one HAS to look up anything, but they can if they wish, provided the deceased person is not a Royal.

That is not right IMO.

I don’t think there should be total secrecy about the wills but I think there should be redactions if it affects living family members.

I get the curiosity or nosiness about cupboard skeletons and it would be interesting.

The difference is that their dirty linen would be all over the world in a heartbeat and everyone else’s family secrets would be very much kept within the family and firmly squashed.

I’m all for as much equality as there can be given the circumstances but that seems unfair. As is often the case with family secrets, those involved with it all have probably long gone and the family has to try to pick up the pieces. From experience? It isn’t fun.

While I’m here, I did agree with Mrs Leon’s posts earlier. I think that there has to be change, starting with paring down the Civil List etc., but it will take time and can be done with care to those who have already spent much of their life knowing no different. Changes can be made going forward so that each generation can tackle specific things.

I do think that a happy (ish!) medium could be achieved.

The alternative I can’t quite see happening and is likely to cause as much or more dissent than the situation we have presently.

Money will always speak and money will always pave the way.

Totally agree with @adragoncalledaudrey comparing the interest in my will and the impact any skeletons would have on my immediate family with that of the royal family (and politicians and other famous public figures for that matter) is like comparing apples and pears. Not a fair comparison. Especially if the real reason for that exposure is simply public nosiness.

Is the Royal Family the only entity where information about their wills etc. would be world news in minutes? What about other lofty, famous, infamous and celebrity wills?

Anyway, surely if they don't want certain information to be revealed, they would do what most intelligent testators would do, and make sure the will doesn't reveal much, just in case the law ever changed for them! There are ways around it.

What is the reason for the secrecy, that's what I'm after, in comparison with similar wealthy and famous people.

I know people that do this! Also knew someone that would drive by his coworkers’ homes to check them out. He bought a new one because he learned someone he managed had a larger house.

BTW I just did a quick check and it looks like all European Royal Families keep their wills private, although some are accessible by request.

Royal Blood wants to keep it all sewn up and away from its subjects. Off with their heads!

Presumably most people thought he was not quite right in the head?

It’s not nosiness

We are being sold a lie . They sell themselves as the perfect family - the will that may reveal secret other families rather blows up that illusion doesn’t it?

Royal wills have not always been secret btw. I doubt they gave a damn who knew what in the past - it was only after other royal families had been seen off that suddenly image mattered . I think it was the early 20th century in the uk when the first royal will was sealed . To hide an affair with a married woman. Similar reasons for hiding the wills today ?

Philips will was sealed for 90 years - after I believe the request to seal it indefinitely was refused . However after the 90 years ‘someone’ will decide if it is politic to reveal it .
The reason given at the time was to avoid embarrassment to the queen .

The other important reason of course is to hide the wealth they have amassed from us .

I think there are better reasons to want to lob their heads off than the fact that they protect their private lives from your tittle-tattle.

I am on the fence about other famous people.

If you are an elite musician or sports person who plays for the love of playing, becomes famous and benefits financially from it does that make your private life everyone else's business. You sold your musical talent, or your sports ability not your personal life.

On the other hand if you regularly choose to sell bits of your life for personal gain I feel as if you leave yourself open to invasion. But you could argue that everyone has the right to say no when enough is enough.

It would be far easier if humans were not so determined to find out every last negative detail about each other and just get more positive and helpful activities.

Thanks for the thread @LipglossAndLies

And some great posts by @MrsLeonFarrell @YouSawBrigadoon @Desperatelyseekinglazysusan and others!

So much I agree with.

As far as the Wills, I think it is ridiculous many of them are kept private. Even minor royals can have them kept private, it is not right. Duke of Windsor, Louis Mountbatten, Queen mother, Princess Margaret. Why? 30 members of the Windsor family have applied for private Wills. They are kept for 90 years and even then the Monarch's private solicitor, the Keeper of the Archives and others decide whether it can be made public. More often than that, they decide to keep it private.

We can't do that.
(and before anyone says we can, it is an expensive lengthy process that is often denied)

They do not sell themselves as the perfect family. I mean, look at them.

They are a family of normal humans who through good or bad luck depending on your view were accidently selected to represent the crown, or monarcy.

The media have decided that means they have to hold themselves to a higher standard in their private lives than the average person and criticize them when they dont.

All I expect of them is that in their public roles the behave professionally. What they do in their private lives I couldn't give a hoot. Unless its illigal in which case they should be prosecuted same as everyone else.

What they do with their unearned wealth is their own business. So long as they are using state money for state occasions and state owned buildings and private revenue to hire as many bouncy castles, and butlers to peel grapes and put the toothpaste on their toothbrush as they feel they need.

Same as every other family with generational or self made wealth.

@Ukisgaslit

You are quite correct. Prince Philip of Teck who was quite a scoundrel gave some family jewels to his married mistress in 1910. And the Royal House wanted them back. They sealed his will for 90 years.
And there the tradition started.

I would love to know who the 30 envelopes of requests for sealed Wills from the House of Windsor are.

So we can do that? If we have enough money and a good enough reason.

Everything I have read in the past says it is near impossible. See below....

It is extremely difficult—and nearly impossible for the average person—to get a will sealed. Once a grant of probate is issued, wills become public documents that anyone can search and read. Courts only seal wills in rare, exceptional cases where public disclosure poses a severe security risk or violates extreme privacy interests, such as with senior members of the royal family.

We are lesser mortals than they are. That is the sum of it isn't it?

But it is possible if there is a good enough reason. Don't forget that the royals are diplomatically important, and a high security risk. Therefore there are good reasons.

If you had an individual with similar circumstances the same could be done, a google says it has happened in the past.

It is not because they are more 'special' but because they are genuinely in a more unique position than most people.

I would like to know a reason that an ordinary member of the public can seal their Will.
I am not talking Diplomats or the Royal Family. Personally I don't know of good reasons why the RF can seal their wills apart from bequests to mistresses and hiding extreme wealth would be reason enough for them.
Apparently (but who knows) that was the case with Philip.

The ordinary public can't.

Good god.

Nowt as sure as folk.

a good thread, any chance its university related eg part of a degree @LipglossAndLies that said still a gooden