Royals and Religion - A relationship through time

[myrtleWilson]

A few threads this Easter have touched upon the relationship between the RF and religion. There was some really interesting avenues for discussion that didn't focus on who was worshipping where (or not). I offered to start a thread that isn't meant to focus on individuals and criticism but explore the relationship between the two institutions in a 21st century.

With religion (and certainly participation rates) declining in the UK, is it inconceivable that a future monarch (or indeed a future govt) disentangles the R&R's? As we see an increase in personal spirituality, and a connection to what I've seen termed as 'faith in action' with respect to social justice, is that what we may want current/future monarchs to reflect? Is it important to have strong and constant faith or can monarchs (and heirs) acknowledge doubts? Can you have faith without demonstrating faith (as a monarch)

What lessons from history can we learn from and how do our European monarchies engage in this space?

I've attached links to a couple of pieces I stumbled across this weekend - a couple of these were linked to the question is PW religious but as I've suggested, lets try to keep this thread off critiques of individuals! Should also say the links below I've not done a massive deep dive on them - they seem sound but if they have dodgy affiliations I've not uncovered then apologies in advance!

Prince William's doubt is normal - it's impossible to be certain whether there is a God | Seen & Unseen
Prince William ‘is reflecting a discomfort with Christianity in this country’ – SWINDON CHURCH
Church and state in European monarchies | The Constitution Unit Blog

I think the late Queen was a believer, she was known to seek out prominent faith leaders to talk about her faith in private so she probably wouldn't have done that otherwise.

I agree that Charles may be more agnostic but has affirmed he thinks a lot about spirituality and he meaning of faith.

I’m talking about what they genuinely believed, privately, not the sort of official guff you have to trot out when you’re a royal who has ridiculous amounts of anachronistic wealth and status because of a position which also, ridiculously, includes you being head of the C of E.

Fair enough.
You apparently think they were lying.
I don't.
But there's no point asking the question if you're not going to believe what people say, and nobody can read their minds.

I mean, hard to imagine Edward VIII, a spoilt, weak, proto-fascist playboy who didn’t go to church, as any kind of believer.

I didn't mention him.
I've no idea what he had to say on the matter and, since he wasn't crowned and didn't reign, it's a moot point.

I don't have a religious faith, I was brought up in the C of E, very traditionally (not happy-clappy evangelical).

I prefer people to keep their religious beliefs to themselves. it should be a personal thing. I don't like the 'you don't believe in God so you shouldn't go to church'. What is meant by God? How much of the official doctrine should one believe to be allowed to go to worship in a church, or just be present at services? I quite like going to some services (and Richard Dawkins does, too, for that matter!'.

I think, 40 or so years ago, no-one nosed into precisely what people's personal religious beliefs are, and quite right too. I detest this 'you must pass the test of belief in my terms or you can't come to church!'

I'm not touching on the disestablishment or otherwise of the C of E here, just cringing at people speculating as to what individuals' beliefs are, and whether this should debar them from attending church!

Your history seems to have a few sizeable holes in it if you think Edward VIII ‘didn’t reign’. Who do you think was on the throne from the moment George V died until Edward abdicated?

I'm not sure a weak character means you don't believe in God. Lots of people who believe struggle to live Christian lives.

Belief in God has little connection with how 'good' someone is, in my experience.

Evelyn Waugh was an enthusiastic catholic convert but a horrible, snobbish and cruel man. He considered himself a devout Christian and attended Mass regularly.

Didn't Charles talk about being a "defender of faith" rather than " defender of the faith? He put it a bit clumsily IIRC but I think I got his drift. I think disestablishment is the right course. It would mean a major, major rethink of the Coronation (etc) of course and I'm uncertain how that would work.

I'm not sure Charles is agnostic though, perhaps more spiritual, but he has spent time in Christian contexts such as Mount Athos.

It would be helpful to define what you mean by "believe in God". Do you mean the last monarch who was a devout member of the Church of England (which would be the late Queen) or the lay monarch to have faith in a higher power, not necessarily rigidly defined by Protestant theology and doctrine, which would be the King.

Who literally believed in the existence of a deity as envisaged by Christianity — supernatural, omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being, who will come to judge the living and the dead, sent his only son etc etc.

And I don’t think we know anything about the last queen’s actual beliefs. Churchgoing and the appearance of observance would have fitted with her ideas of proper behaviour.

Definitely the late Queen going by her public statements. I'm not sure about Charles but I do feel a bit weird even discussing it as I don't really think it's my place to judge what faith others have or don't have.

I don't think it will change in a very long time. My opinion is that the monarch should have the same choice about religion (or no religion) as we all do, and the Church of England should be independent of the state.

It’s your place if your HoS is also also head of your country’s established church, surely?

Do you find it hard to believe that anyone would believe in a deity as envisaged by Christianity?

I don't think so. I don't think personal faith is anything to do with me, even if the individual involved has a political position as Head of the Church, or even if the person in question has a religious position such as Archbishop come to that. In a church congregation of 100 you would get 100 slightly different theologically.

I don't think there is any reason to doubt the late QE believed anything other than what she publically professed to repeatedly over many, many years, ie a Christian faith of quite a traditional kind. Princess Margaret wrote Christian prayers. Prince Philip was known to cross himself in the Orthodox way he'd been bought up with and lead discussions between faiths.

The matter of faith is and should be a personal matter though and a separation between Church and State is IMO the right thing for all sorts of reasons.

I’m uneasy about the monarchy and religion being so interconnected. You still get disqualified from the line of succession if you are Protestant. Up until 2013 they couldn’t marry a Catholic!

I remember finding it weird that Meghan converted to Church of England and was baptised and confirmed into this faith. I don’t know whether it was expected of her or she did it out of respect for the institution. Does she still consider herself Church of England now she lives in the US? It blows my mind. Faith, religion and worship are all so personal, I find it uncomfortable that you are expected to change your belief system just to be accepted into a family (that is universal, not just specific to the royal family).

To me, faith and religion is private. You should be allowed to worship in which ever way you choose. And no one should be forced to worship, or even pay lip service, to something they do not believe. It’s deeply disturbing and unethical. Imagine a board of Trustees voted out the CEO of a company purely because the CEO is a Muslim. You’d be looking at a discrimination lawsuit!

I'm sure my history has many holes but I'm also sure you understood my meaning.
I should have said he wasn't crowned and hence didn't take the Coronation Oath.
You scored your point
But, as I said, I didn't mention him in my post.

I find it uncomfortable that you are expected to change your belief system just to be accepted into a family (that is universal, not just specific to the royal family).

I agree @PrettyFlyforaMaiTai . Prince Philip converted from Greek Orthodox when he married the late QE. The last Tsarina converted to Russian Orthodoxy from Lutheranism when she married the Tsar. Interestingly, the Grand Duchess Elizabeth also converted to Orthodoxy some years after her marriage and it seems to have been a totally free decision.

Not keen generally on people giving up their faith/denomination unless it is entirely down to their own convictions.

Strange non-sequitur?

Less than 50% of British people said they had any religious belief in 2023, a big decline since . It’s hardly a stretch to think that even when you have a job that includes being Head of the CofE it will rapidly become entirely unnecessary to pretend you’re part of the other 50%.

I think it was relevant because as some people do believe in a God why is it less likely that the monarch actually believes vs pretending to do so.

Also the recent survey was it specific with the question - the God, or a God or a higher power?

I remember finding it weird that Meghan converted to Church of England and was baptised and confirmed into this faith. I don’t know whether it was expected of her or she did it out of respect for the institution.

Respect for the institution? Meghan?

While I'm not sure if it was a formal requirement, she will certainly have been expected to convert, and would have to be married in a CoE ceremony and her children baptised into the Anglican faith.

I agree that church and state should be separated, but don't see any serious movement for disestablishment on the horizon right now.

The Late Queen as described by the Moderator of the Church of Scotland who spent her last weekend with her.

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/morenews/uknews/2022/09/19/church-of-scotland-moderator-reads-prayer-at-queens-funeral-service/

However I say 😂

At the risk of upsetting someone, there has been a huge number of priests and ministers from many Christian sects that have turned out to be pedophiles. It does put some of us off organized religion.