Duchy of Lancaster Theft

[Roussette]

Just when I thought I could not be more taken aback at some of the practices undertaken by our Monarchy, and the sheer greed.

I then read this article. Bottom line.... anyone who dies intestate in Lancashire, and parts of Merseyside, Grtr Manchester, Cheshire and Cumbria... their assets are scooped up by the Duchy of Lancaster who has collected more than £60M over the last 10 years. Not charity as is the norm.. but into the pocket of our King You need to read the article to see what he actually does with it and how it benefits his personal income.

The article explains it well and will answer any questions and queries about it.

Someone yesterday accused me of 'despising' the RF. I disagreed but I am beginning to wonder if that poster was right. Especially when I read something like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/23/revealed-king-charles-secretly-profiting-from-the-assets-of-dead-citizens?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I want to think I am a hardened cynic but this made me feel a bit sick. This practice is amoral, grasping and unseemly - they don't need any more money! Trawling through public records looking for people who die without wills is something I'd expect conmen to do. That sort of thing should be beneath the royal family. Turns out it isn't.

Well for all those surprised that people didn't know. I think most people don't. Most would prob guess that it if someone dies with no will and no living relatives then it goes to the state.

But for it, dependent where you live, to go to Charles to make himself even more money, absolutely disgusts me.

I suspect this will change very soon, now that us plebs are more aware.

Strange post! Children being abused doesn't affect me. I still have an opinion on it and want processes and laws in place to try to prevent it.

So on average they collect £6m a year. it's really not that much in the overall scheme of things.

Hopefully the Duchy will now be inclined to be more transparent on how that money is distributed, it will be interesting to see if they will clarify exactly how much was spent on renovating commercial properties.

It would be a very nice annual donation to a few charities in the locale where the inheritances came from, if even some of it was given locally.

It would be a very nice annual donation to a few charities in the locale where the inheritances came from, if even some of it was given locally.

Well... therein lies the rub. Why, in god's name, don't they do this? Why are they so greedy

I just don't get it. Charles was paid out something like £27M, William £21M in a year. He became a billionaire overnight when Charles passed on Cornwall on the Queen's death. Charles is worth £2billion

It just seems to me that however much they have, it's never enough. Why don't they make a stand and renovate those farm buildings out of their own pocket, run the pheasant shoots from their own massive wealth, put in the new boilers and heating systems into commercial properties... no, instead they just sweep up any money they can lay their hands on, and this time it's deceased people who live in Duchy areas.

I sometimes think they must be very stupid as well as greedy.

Deary me... this article looking into the Duchies in depth is quite an eye opener. Especially the moving graph showing the Duchies income versus UK average earnings.

Interesting article looking into the history of the Duchies and where they stand in today's modern world.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2023/apr/05/revealed-royals-took-more-than-1bn-income-from-controversial-estates-king-charles-queen-duchies-cornwall-lancaster

Six million a year could fund the total running costs of six local charities helping between them thousands of people a year.

One million is the amount given to prize winners in the much publicised earthshot prize. Please do not claim six million annually is not a lot of money.
It's pure greed.

So good to see that Norman Baker (ex Minister, Privy Council, and Author of the book about the Monarchy "And what do you do?")

Put bluntly, we have been lied to. Monies we all thought were going to charity have instead been used to improve properties owned by the duchy, increasing the income stream that flows from them into Charles’s pockets.
We have the most expensive Monarchy in Europe by far in terms of state support, and one that benefits from unique tax treatment available to nobody else. No inheritance tax is paid. The so-called private estates of the duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster are not private enough to pay corporation tax or capital gains tax. Even income tax is only paid voluntarily – if it all – no receipts have ever been made public.
The civil list, which in 2011 gave the royals £7.9m a year, was replaced, after palace lobbying, with the sovereign grant, which 12 years later is up to £86m a year.

You've nailed it Norman.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/24/royal-greed-king-charles-profiting-dead-disgusting?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

.

I have mixed feelings about this - I am pro a constitutional monarchy but certainly think that there’s lots of room for improvement on how things are run in the modern world.

I don’t think that saying ‘but it’s how it’s always been done and it’s simply the law’ means that a practice shouldn’t be examined and criticized and changed.

On the other hand I don’t really believe there are many people who wouldn’t take full advantage of legal options to their own benefit if they were available. (Despite all the Mumsnetters who piously swear blind that they would be different). I don’t think it makes the Windsors any more greedy or self serving than the average person.

But this is one area where it would be fairly easy to make a significant change that could do some real good for the communities. Transparent accounting, auditing and managed as efficiently as possible to make sure long lost heirs are found when possible and then a yearly community fund spent on facilities or needs decided by the different communities themselves. Either council led or specifically set up local board.

And the government’s not going to spend time and resources fighting to change this - with all the other issues in the country I don’t think there would be enough outrage to make it worthwhile for most politicians to take on.

So come on William - I’m sure someone on your team scans these boards - here’s an easy win for you and public opinion ratings.

Oh they definitely keep on top of things on these boards ….

But yes thank god for the indefatigable Norman Baker.

But this is one area where it would be fairly easy to make a significant change that could do some real good for the communities. Transparent accounting, auditing and managed as efficiently as possible to make sure long lost heirs are found when possible and then a yearly community fund spent on facilities or needs decided by the different communities themselves. Either council led or specifically set up local board

I think this is a problem that might be being overegged on this thread and by the Guardian?

Aside from the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, all this unclaimed property gets paid to the government. Specifically, it goes to Treasury. All of the three bodies who receive it account fro it transparently.

Firstly, the Treasury Solicitor publishes a report every year. I’ve linked to it. It starts by saying ”As Treasury Solicitor, I have been appointed by the Sovereign to be the Crown’s Nominee for the purpose of collecting and disposing of bona vacantia (ownerless assets). The Bona Vacantia Division of the Government Legal Department administers bona vacantia in England and Wales on my behalf, except for the Duchies of Cornwall or Lancaster for which I have no responsibility.”

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1169223/Crown_s_Nominee_Account_2022-23.pdf

I’ve posted at length on this thread already about how the Duchy of Cornwall does record openly in its public, independently audited accounts how much money comes to it via Bona Vacantia every year, and exactly what it does with it. The charity that it is paid to also has public, independently audited accounts showing you how it has distributed that money each year.

So that only leaves the Duchy of Lancaster. It too also records what it receives and what it does with it in its independently audited annual accounts. I’ve added screenshots below from the most recent accounts.

You may not like this relic of this country’s past. You may not like the way in which the money that is collected this way is distributed. But (a) it’s obviously not applicable to the vast majority of estates - this only happens where there is no will and no-one reasonably locatable who can inherit it; (b) it’s all fully disclosed and (c) it’s not going to pay for new handbags or shoes for the Royals. The fact that you previously may not have known about it doesn’t make it theft, or any other of the heated terms being used.

I really appreciate your post. You might be pro Monarchy but you can see the unease from posters on here with how Charles and indeed William handles this.

A part of me wonders... do they actually know? Is everything left to teams of experts and they didn't have a clue that this was going on? I'm being kind here because they really should know how the Duchies are handled. If they didn't know, they will now, thank you Guardian and now a lot of other media reporting this!

I don’t think it makes the Windsors any more greedy or self serving than the average person.

I really don't however agree with this. They are not the average person. They are exceptional. They are a law unto themselves. They are unique. I just don't think you can say this is how the average person would behave.

Transparent accounting, auditing and managed as efficiently as possible to make sure long lost heirs are found when possible and then a yearly community fund spent on facilities or needs decided by the different communities themselves. Either council led or specifically set up local board.

Love this. Yes, come on William.

Sorry, Serenster, but it's not just the Guardian reporting on this, others are picking it up too. I am inclined to have faith with what they say, because after all... the Monarchy has form for opacity.

No one has suggested it is for new shoes or handbags

I am inclined to have faith with what they say, because after all... the Monarchy has form for opacity.

And as I know, from experience the Guardian has form for selective reporting and misleading by omission!

And what exactly does “trousering” the money mean if not taking it for personal use..?

Funny that some normally Monarchy supporting media have picked up on it too, isn't it?

You think the practice is all OK, others don't. I haven't used the word 'trousering'. It appears that the Duchy uses the money to improve commercial buildings that are rented out, and that rent is then in Charles's pocket... is that 'trousering'? It is used to improve residential properties owned by the Duchy thereby making high rents which then enrich Charles. Is that 'trousering'?

It's just a word. It doesn't mean new shoes and handbags... that's all paid for by us anyway!

On point about the inherent bias of the article, I note that Norman Baker’s polemic, heavily laden with terms like “disgusting avarice” also concludes with the rousing lines “Opening the doors on royal finances and practices will reveal a terrible stench”.

Quite clearly, he’s never going to mention that all this income stream is transparently disclosed in the accounts, is he? Or that it takes just a few minutes googling to find out exactly what was collected each years and where it was paid. Or the fact that this is hardly a great secret - plenty of people already knew about it.

It is used to improve residential properties owned by the Duchy thereby making high rents which then enrich Charles.

And which he then pays income tax on that, as we’ve already discussed. So it increases his taxable income. How terrible…??

You might not like Norman Baker. I do. And when he talks of the stench of Royal finances... he means all royal finances not just this.

As far as income tax... hahaha... poor old Charles having to voluntarily pay that! It should really just be us serfs under the cosh for income tax! Seriously though... as has been said before, because it is voluntary, we don't know how much he pays. It could be £3.50 for all we know.
(cue Serenster finding some document or other showing some income tax payment that proves it's more than £3.50!)

I get that you like Norman Baker. That’s obvious. I just don’t see how anyone can pretend articles like this are balanced and unbiased. The highly emotive and pejorative language alone is a dead giveaway.

So that only leaves the Duchy of Lancaster.

That is in fact the title of the thread. Thats literally the focus of the Guardian articles.

You may not like the way in which the money that is collected this way is distributed.

Thats exactly the point, people don't like they can take it and use it for the crown private estates.

But (a) it’s obviously not applicable to the vast majority of estates - this only happens where there is no will and no-one reasonably locatable who can inherit it; (b) it’s allfully disclosed and (c) it’s not going to pay for new handbags or shoes for the Royals. The fact that you previously may not have known about it doesn’t make it theft, or any other of the heated terms being used.

Again, all things already covered. You're attempting to minimise the problems, but aren't saying anything not already covered in the articles and this thread. We know that is only those without a will and no blood relatives they can find, but some still have an issue with it because they're using some of it for the own private use, and only a portion is going to charity.

Some people think they should get none of it, and that all of it should go to the state and actually do think it is theft! It wasn't left to them, its only happening in some areas, and morally it is wrong for someone so wealthy to take any more from the public who already give a sizeable wage to them every year.

The fact so many people don't realise this is going on is a problem, it should;t be this way and they should do a better job of making people aware.

There is plenty that is not balanced and unbiaised about the media reporting of the Royal Family, it's good there is another side to it. Look at the BBC for instance... whilst they might admit that the Monarchy is a divisive issue, their reporting is completely one-sided!

Republican views should be covered, at least Norman Baker and the Guardian are doing that, uncomfortable though it might be for true royalists.

So it increases his taxable income. How terrible…??

Ahhh I think we would be better off with the total and not just the bit of tax he voluntarily pays. Its not his money. Its pure greed of them to take it.

Some people think they should get none of it, and that all of it should go to the state and actually do think it is theft! It wasn't left to them, its only happening in some areas, and morally it is wrong for someone so wealthy to take any more from the public who already give a sizeable wage to them every year

⬆ This.

As a PP suggested, put the money to good use in local deprived areas in the Duchy, set up Community funding, do good with it... as opposed to updating a duchy owned property, then increasing the rent, or putting in a new boiler in a commercial property.

Disgusting