Duchy of Lancaster Theft

[Roussette]

Just when I thought I could not be more taken aback at some of the practices undertaken by our Monarchy, and the sheer greed.

I then read this article. Bottom line.... anyone who dies intestate in Lancashire, and parts of Merseyside, Grtr Manchester, Cheshire and Cumbria... their assets are scooped up by the Duchy of Lancaster who has collected more than £60M over the last 10 years. Not charity as is the norm.. but into the pocket of our King You need to read the article to see what he actually does with it and how it benefits his personal income.

The article explains it well and will answer any questions and queries about it.

Someone yesterday accused me of 'despising' the RF. I disagreed but I am beginning to wonder if that poster was right. Especially when I read something like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/23/revealed-king-charles-secretly-profiting-from-the-assets-of-dead-citizens?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I'm not sure what their point was, so I asked for clarification as to:
It does not mention Lancashire or any particular region.

what do they mean? The comment seemed to be saying that the article and thread discussion was inaccurate and that the duchies did not get any BV.

Also On top of that, it says the treasury solicitor will deal with the estate (which I am assuming we pay for). This just gets better.
We pay for what? We don't pay for collection or administration, it comes out of the unclaimed estates.

I just misunderstood what you meant with this sentence.

As such, there aren’t “victims” in the tradition sense of someone being actively harmed, but arguably there are people who are unfairly missing out on something they would normally have received.

I think you have been a voice of reason in this discussion.

what do they mean? The comment seemed to be saying that the article and thread discussion was inaccurate and that the duchies did not get any BV.

Yes. I linked all the postcodes covered by both Duchies.

The discussion here is that the Duchys take the money from BV and do not give it to charity

They used to simply pocket it no questions asked .
Then in the 1920s the government tried to tighten things legally after (a million pounds disappeared -I wonder what is worth today ) .
From that point we were assured that the money will go to charity .
Except it hasn’t been

It’s the Duchy misleading the public that is the problem here

That the Duchy continues its feudal
ripoff in all areas is a separate matter

The discussion here is that the Duchys take the money from BV and do not give it to charity

Well it is for some of us, Novella - after all that's what they claimed and it seems to be yet another lie - but inevitably on threads like this things wander

I am mistaken when they talk about the Crown - they mean the Treasury, which is a government department. I have no issue with unclaimed estates going to the government. But that’s not how it comes across. Why not say it goes to the government?
As for the Duchies - for me that and the Crown means the same thing. But I appreciate that it may not be.

The Crown is a catch-all which covers a multitude of sins and doesn’t necessarily indicate whether the monarchy gets to use the money or government ministers do. It’s actually a comparatively small amount of money. It’s the same for governmental powers - a lot of them are exercised in the name or the place of the crown. Most of them are just officials making choices. It’s like the honours list - does anyone honestly think King Charles gets to appoint any OBEs, KBEs, etc? No, he does not. The government whistles at whoever they want appointed and KC taps them with his sword.

As for the Duchies - for me that and the Crown means the same thing. But I appreciate that it may not be.
The Duchies are the private estates of the Monarch ( Lancaster ) and the heir ( Cornwall ).

This is something we touched on in work. We dealt with people's deceased accounts. Any estate where we had no knowledge of any heirs we passed onto the Crown Solicitor. I believe they pass them onto those firms you see on heir hunters. I once looked up Bona Vacantia and saw the rules regarding the Duchy of Lancaster and that of Cornwall but there were a few other odd ones. I think one was Bristol or some city where the money may have gone to a museum or library.

I haven't RTFT but have plenty of experience in this area.

The 'Crown Estates' are managed by HM Treasury and any profits are income to the treasury to be spent however the Government of the day decides. This is therefore for the benefit of everyone.

My understanding of the Duchies is that the BV amounts are used for the upkeep or renovation of Duchy properties. Any money left over is then paid to charity.

The incidental benefit to the Dukes of Lancashire and Cornwall is the increase in any rental income arising as a result of the improvements to the properties. The Dukes do not get to pocket any cash from the BV values.

Do you know whether bv estates within the Duchies’ remits are listed anywhere?

I think it would be nice if they’d allow everyone within the duchy to apply to use the funds to improve their own properties in the same fashion.

I linked this upthread... you can click on DoL or DoCornwall and see all the postcodes covered by the Duchies. Was that what you meant...

https://www.farrer.co.uk/campaigns/bona-vacantia/deceased-individuals/

The Duchies are private estates. They are not for public use, its their private property handed down to each monarch and heir. Last year Charles got £26 million out of it. The income generated from the rentals and investments, is theirs. The Bona Vacantia money the Duchies collect, is theirs to do with what they wish. They said it would be used for charities. In fact, much of it is used to improve and maintain their private properties. It pays to read the full thread to save it being explained repeatedly, or indeed read the article to understand the issues that have just been uncovered, and the fact that most of the charity money goes to their own trusts that improve their own private estates. One 'charity donation' to their housing trust, was used to buy properties from the Duchy, so they absolutely benefited from BV monies in that instance. They also get dividends from the invested money, some of which comes from BV too.

No, not quite. The Treasury’s list may or may not be comprehensive. I just can’t find a definitive answer to whether it does include Duchy bv estates (which would not be administered by HMT) or just those that do fall to be administered by HMT. Ultimately the question is, ‘do the Duchies and HMT centralise and consolidate the list, or not?’.

Posters have directed me to the Guardian articles, and I may well have missed the relevant part, but I can’t see anything about lists or registers of any Duchy bv estates in any article.

One poster said there was a (I think) YouTube video about it, but again I can’t find it and the poster didn’t come back with a link. I can’t see anywhere that the Times (or Gazette, which is usual) are mentioned either, though posters seem sure that that’s where Duchy bv estates are publicised.

I don’t seem to feel as strongly as most about the Duchies’ positions, but I would take a dim view of an absence of public listing of Duchy bv estates that could be researched and claimed on.

@WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps why would the treasury include estates they have no authority over? Its just the list of those estates they have authority over so I wouldn't expect them to list those that don't belong to them. I have spent some time looking at the list and see none from the Duchies so far. Hopefully I get an official answer to my query though.
*The Government Legal Department handles bona vacantia in England and Wales (except in the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster).
Elsewhere, bona vacantia is dealt with by:

• in the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster - Farrer and Co
• in Scotland - The King’s and Lord Treasurer’s Remembrancer
• in Northern Ireland - phone the Crown Solicitor’s Office for Northern Ireland*

I understand all that.

HMT might well include Duchy bv estates by agreement with the Duchies. That would hardly be irrational. After all, the ultimate owner of all (real) property is the Crown, and HMT is a function of the Crown. That’s why it’s His Majesty’s Treasury.

I’m just asking for a definitive source for the answer!

Surely the above is clearly saying they don't handle those ones in the duchies though, why would they list what they're not responsible for? Why wouldn't the duchies link to the list if thats where you could find it, especially as they've been asked about it before? Anyway, as with anything to do with them, its all unclear and you will not likely get a 'we don't list it anywhere' or 'heres the list' answer.

You’d be surprised at the amount of constitutional law you just can’t cite a source for, unfortunately.

I suspect you’re right. Though I don’t see that an enquiry to HMT about a Duchy estate on HMT’s list being passed to Farrers would be a particularly unlikely scenario. The absence of a link from Farrers’s site is more telling, I agree.

I might ask Farrers.

I assume heir hunters would know as well. Maybe a call to one of them, too.

As someone said upthread, the fact that one has to dig so much is a form of answer in itself.

I can't find it now but I read an interview with a heir hunter about it where he referenced it not being listed like the treasury ones... I asked Farrers too so we'll see! Maybe all this attention will force them to list it on the Farrers site.

I have to correct something I said upthread
I thought the ‘royals’ accepted pressure to donate bona vacantia funds to charity in the 1920
It was the 1970s!
But they weren’t donating to charity were they ?

Upgrading properties which then generate rent , rent which goes into their own pocket is not charity
Unless like the Windsors , you agree that that family is a charity

worse, they 'donated' some of the money to their own housing trust and then that trust used the money to buy properties off the Duchy! he can't pocket that money but he can invest it and earn from it. Such lovely charity.

https://consoc.org.uk/publications/europes-last-imperial-monarchy/#:~:text=Europe's%20Last%20Imperial%20Monarchy%20by,of%20monarchy%20in%20the%20UK.

This document gives more background .
it is an easy read but longish

omg, pretty shocking