The markel family interview

[IamSuperTired]

Anyone know how/where I can watch it? :) I think it's on today ....

I've quoted them. ''There were conversations ...about no security, no title... and how dark his skin might be when he’s born.'

As I said, insinuation.

I didn’t ask you to do anything. Let’s go over it again. You said nobody was forced, I show clearly due to colonisation that isn’t true, you try to deflect into worrying about the descendants of colonisers and their rights to vote ( which gave never been in question ) and then ask me for a solution to the injustices of colonisation, which include sovereignty, you agreed with my starting point to a solution or reparation but also add ‘what would you like me to do’ when in fact I didn’t ask you personally for a thing. I just want your king to honour the treaty made with us.

I want the treaty upheld, which includes sovereignty and then we can do away with this British king as the head of state. We have our own king thanks.

Why link the conversations about title and security with the colour of his skin?

They were all happening at the same time, which clearly doesn’t make someone new to the family feel welcome. It was to give context to get feelings that her race was an issue within the institution itself.

My my.

As things stand NZ is a democracy.

I can understand why you would want to put the clock back - if only that was possible. But, from my limited knowledge of NZ, the current majority of the population have chosen - for now - to remain in the Commonwealth.

I am sorry for the damage done to so many nations by British imperialism. But I am not sure what the solution is?

And if the majority of the population want to remain part of the Commonwealth, well, that's democracy. The rule of the majority. Many of whom have lived in NZ for generations.

Thomas Markle is a horrible man. End of
He had a difficult relationship with ALL of his children. Meghan was the only one who gave him the time of day and has given him financial aid
He provided for her financially when she was young but appears to be a difficult, flawed individual with a lot of issues .
Samantha is just a nasty piece of work who has exploited her own father for monetary gain.Her own kids cannot bear her yet she waxes lyrical about Meghan being an awful child
I honestly don’t know how Meghan turned out so well coming from all that dysfunction.

Don't you think people who have lived in NZ for generations have the right to be involved in the choice of government?

Just as people whose parents or grandparents moved to the UK have the right to choose the government? And shouldn't be discriminated against as not 'really' British?

Just to reiterate, nobody was asking you to do or give anything, or even feel guilt. You are being educated as to why ‘nobody is forced’ is not an accurate statement. At this point I would expect someone with awareness to take that onboard and not say here again that everyone has a choice. You keep saying Harry has work to do on his unconscious bias, and I remind you again so do you. The way you take over conversations that affect people of colour is a clear sign you still have a long journey ahead of you and I hope you choose to listen even just a little, as so far all I see you doing is talking over women of colour here and saying disingenuously, ‘ what do you want me to do about it’. Start by listening and learning and being quiet about issues you don’t understand until you do actually understand them.

😂yes, the colour of your skin is the definitive argument! I have 'taken over' a conversation etc etc

What happened was wrong, and I am interested in what can be done to put it right.

But I am not sure what the solution is?

You just agreed my family and iwi should get 100% of the value of our land and full sovereignty, yes? So there you go, we have learnt something today and you have been bold enough to agree with me that the treaty should be honoured. I take that as progress.

Of course? Why wouldn't I agree?

'full sovereignty' - well, that depends on 'sovereignty'. The Balkans wars of the 1990s show how difficult that can be. One persons' 'sovereignty' is another persons' 'break away'.

Same in the Ukraine Donbas - who gets to say whether they are part of Ukraine or part of Russia?

Why wouldn't I agree?

Lots of people don’t, the treaty was signed some time ago! It hasn’t begin honoured yet and clearly, since Charles is our head of state, we haven’t been given sovereignty as promised. I have no idea who would or wouldn’t agree as Britain has yet to honour it and its citizens seem uninterested in it.

Is it for British citizens to be interested? It seems more a matter for NZ citizens. Because, y'know, NZ is an independent country.

Is that it? Oh my word. Is it Meghan who's insinuating stuff or stuff you're making up because you don't like her. It's a list of conversations she had

The way treaty grievances have worked is that if they take long enough, it’s too late to ‘give it back’. It’s like if someone came and took your home and land you may own today. Just took it over. The laws allow it, for some time, and during your kids life this changes and people insist on justice and so they set up a tribunal to deal with this. But it takes so long that it gets to your grandchildren before any chance of getting your house and land back, by which time it’s been developed by another family who think of it as theirs. Too late to give it back to your grandchildren right? But then they have the problem of trying to compensate your family for lost wealth and property, and where that compensation could come from. Your grandchildren wouldn’t give up on getting it back would they? Why should I? My grandmother died in poverty too scared to speak her own language. So when people shrug and say ‘what do you want me to do about it?’, I do wonder why they can’t see that what I want, is for them to care just a little bit about the fact my family are all poor while some other family is rich off our land. That my grandmother died with nothing. I am not asking you to feel white guilt. I am asking for your empathy. If it exists.

Is it for British citizens to be interested?

Yes. You benefited from it.

Not really sure what any of this has to do with the thread topic?

You might want to start your own thread on this @Whaeanui .

What about people whose ancestors were deported from the UK because they stole to support their family? And endured the horrendous conditions of transportation, and have lived for generations as NZ citizens? Do they have any rights?

I’m a descendent of convicts. I’m white and privileged. My rights have not been taken away. Hunger may have driven my ancestors to steal and be transported under a brutal system but that system no longer exists. My ancestors could have freely returned to Britain when their sentences were served or commuted. I

The First Nations People of my country, and the Maori people broke no laws. They were invaded. There’s a very big difference. Huge difference. Their lands were stolen from them. In my country under ‘Terra Nullius’ the British Government made it legal to steal another people’s land.

I’m not having a go at the British people for this. But we need to admit what has gone on, and make reparations and tell the truth. Since federation there have been many atrocities committed under the rule of Australian Govts. So Australians also have to be prepared to make reparations, acknowledge our history and tell the truth. It all needs to change to be fair. We can’t suddenly start the clock now, saying we all have equal opportunities. As it is just not true.

Unequally. My working class grandparents leaving school in their teens and going down t'pit didn't benefit much.

But I understand the principle - I am more familiar with South Africa than NZ, where the deal was that the majority got political power in return for the minority keeping their assets.

But it comes back to the same question - what now? It isn't possible to go back in time.

We need better education. If we are teaching about The Royal Family, we need to stop making out they are in that position because they are good and worthy. They are there due to a bloody history. The institution is not above criticism including and if a daughter in law 's perception is that she wasn't treated well then we should not treat her as a lying pariah. Diana accused the institution of cruelty as well and she received abuse. We are paying for these people after all. We have misunderstand better how badly we treated people during the Empire. I'm 54 so times have changed but the treatment of the indigenous people in the countries was brushed over. We were taught about the cruelty of the Incas and Nazis but not the British.

We need to lose the xenophobia that's crept in over the past 10 years and admit that we do need good relationships with our neighbours. We've got a lot to be proud of. Some of the things that I think we're great about this country the fact we s rated so many great organisations like Macmillans and Samaritans but now we'd call those people do gooders or virtue signallers. I'm proud that so many immigrants have done well like Mo Farah. He was trafficked but flourished but he'd be vilified now.

The press has somehow persuaded us together in hate whether it The EU , people on dinghies of Meghan Markle.

It's a conversation and it's developed.

Nobody is asking for the clock to be turned back - @Morestrangerthings has a good summary of what people are actually asking for - acknowledging the history, knowing that restitution is not possible then attempting to “make whole”.

I completely agree it still isn't a level playing field. And support addressing inequalities. Apart from any other reason - and I support it in principle and not just out of self-interest - I don't want DD to have to keep experiencing racism.

But equally, I respect democratic decisions. If NZ (or any other country) chooses to leave the Commonwealth they are welcome and have my best wishes (not that my wishes have any relevance to anyone!).

On the other hand, one of the first things SA did, under a majority government, was to join. Partly symbolic, and partly practical.

DD and I often talk about SA. Her perspective is that she experiences less racism in the UK than she did as part of the black majority in SA. She has the freedom to explore her faith, gender, race and sexuality here - all topics that would have been heavily policed by the majority (of any race) there. She has to remind herself, when supporting her BFF back in SA, how isolated her BFF is, and how much support DD has here.