Andrew and Harry…

[MyWillyBrokeTheDogBowl]

Someone has just said this to me in passing:

”So Andrew has sex with a 17 year old girl and he’s a predator, the young girl is a victim, but an older woman supposedly humiliates and takes the virginity of a 17 year old Harry and it’s all made into memes and jokes?”

I was in a rush and couldn’t carry on the conversation but it’s thrown me a bit!

Im sort of sat here thinking about it, and aside from the legality of course because these incidents took place in different countries with different laws, what’s the moral implication? Are we seeing Harry as a victim too? Or do we say well 17 year olds have free will to do what they want? There’s a lot of murkiness around whether Virginia was there by choice too, and that’s not even getting into the massive face that Epstein was essentially running a child sex trafficking ring.

I don’t know, it’s made me pause a minute and think ok wait a minute, the jokes about Harry the stallion seem really crass and we would never say those things if the words were coming from a young woman.

Anyway, would appreciate your input! I’ll no doubt bump into this person again soon and would quite like an intelligent response to hand! My brain is working at about 4% capacity after a night up with teething babies!

How old was the “older woman”?

The difference is about consent isn’t it?

I haven’t read the accounts yet but is Harry saying he was coerced or was it consensual?

What’s the power imbalance/balance in each situation? Did the underage parties feel they could decline or were there threats/consequences that were too huge for them?

From what I’ve read it’s all speculation at the moment but from the women I’ve seen “accused” their ages at the time run from 26-40 ish.

isn't it more to do with the victim being trafficked than her age.

I meant

were there threats/consequences that were too huge for them to be able to be honest about what they wanted?

The woman Andrew had sex with was groomed and trafficked.

Yes I think it’s a consent thing at heart? Many people on Reddit and comment sections asking why she didn’t leave if it was so terrible and that there was evidence at the time she was there entirely by choice but I can’t find what they’re referencing.

I suggest you just say to them

“I take it you haven’t read any of the detail behind the Prince Andrew scandal whatsoever?” And leave it at that

why do you even want to engage with them on this issue?

Well, one 17 year old was trafficked. The other had armed security. They had very different capacities for saying no.

Someone with this view will never ever change their mind. So save your energy

It certainly wouldn’t be my choice of conversation topic! It was a mum at the school drop off this morning, she’s always been really very friendly and welcoming to me so I’d rather not argue with her about it, I’m hoping she won’t bring it up again but would like to educate myself a bit so I can form a response just in case

So at 8am, school drop off, on a chilly Monday morning…. She randomly raised this as a topic of conversation?

And if she raises completely unsolicited again , then I would be somewhat baffled by her level of interest in it

@JenniferBarkley is spot on - the consequences of saying no were very different.

I don’t think she’s wrong in what she’s saying though.

It is wrong to make fun of and humiliate people through memes etc regardless of whether they have been abusive or a victim of abuse.

Online abuse isn’t okay, regardless of whether the victim is guilty/innocent.

Two wrongs don’t make a right and all that.

I think it’s a case of different circumstances here, but it is a fact that publicly teenager boys having relationships with older woman are seen as some sort of accomplishment (ie I’ve read many online comments of boys getting with their Teachers and they are almost applauded) yet teenage girls getting with older men are seen as being groomed/abused and the man is persecuted. Why aren’t both sexes treated equally?!

Completely different scenario. Virginia Guiffre was trafficked and groomed. It was an organised operation to provide a supply of young girls to give (at least) massages and hand jobs to older men. Maxwell “recruited” Guiffre at the age of 15.

Also Virginia claims that she was coerced, Harry does not claim that he was coerced. There is also an issue to do with the age of consent in America. Harry was over the age of consent in the UK and isn’t suggesting he was abused as a minor.

It’s weird that he apparently describes the experience as “humiliating”, but he isn’t saying that she humiliated him. Seems to me that what he meant was the whole behind-the-pub scenario was a bit grubby.

Andrew it is about him allegedly being part of a very powerful ring of paedophiles and sex traffickers and having sex with a trafficked teenager. And let’s face it, considering what Epstein allegedly was, does anyone really believe that if true she was the only one. That he was hanging out for years with that guy and the likes of woody Allen, Kevin spacey, Donald trump, bill Clinton etc and it was only Victoria?

how did eEpstein die, where are the tapes he made, what is ghislaine hiding as she languishes in jail.

your friend is a fucking idiot if he thinks that what Andrew did is the same as having sex consensually with someone older at 17 when he doesn’t even know the age of the person. And not least as 17 is above rhe age of consent in England.

I think it is a bit disturbing that a 17 year old boy losing his virginity to a much older woman is seen as a joking matter. It's a bit seedy and I feel like the older woman "took advantage" to use an old fashioned phrase. I bet there are lots of men out there who have similar experiences that they find it hard to process because the age difference if its a younger man and older woman is seen as a joke, rather than predatory behaviour on behalf of the woman.

Prince Andrew is totally irrelevant though.

Harry was groomed too, he just didn't get a holiday out of it (aka trafficking)

Many prostitutes currently working in the UK are trafficked in one way or another. People post on here occasionally about their Dhs contacting escorts or using them in the past. They are just as bad, no?

That's disgusting and you need to read up about Epstein/Andrew.

Those girls did not "get a holiday". Its sexual abuse.

You're comparing being trafficked into sexual exploitation with a holiday? Fuck off.

Harry could have given more details but as usual he's been a bit vague and so has instigated speculation.

Lady Diana was 19 when she got engaged to the then 32 year old Prince Charles was she groomed ?