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The royal family

Your appraisal be for how well Queen Elizabeth II defended the faith?

184 replies

Inspecto · 17/12/2022 13:34

The upcoming coronation is reminding everyone that the monarchy is tasked with defending the faith. New book released ahead of the coronation too: Defenders of the Faith

What would your appraisal be for how well Queen Elizabeth II defended the faith?

Apparently, she had a great personal faith.
But her ‘never complain and never explain’ line was a poor strategy for defending the faith. The faith numbers demonstrably dropped during her 70-year reign. And I don’t yet see any evidence of her doing anything meaningful to defend the faith from the fall in numbers.

It matters because the Crown is the symbol of justice. People need faith in justice. That means a monarch must be able to complain about injustice and explain the complexity of justice. Fair?

OP posts:
Byfleet · 23/12/2022 11:17

Oh my goodness. I suspected this torrent of stuff might come out, as your previous posts have been so odd.

I am definitely finished with this now.

Avalavalanche · 23/12/2022 12:15

...and you jumped the shark.

Byfleet · 23/12/2022 12:30

...and you jumped the shark

Too right. You could have spun it out a couple more days, even included something from the King’s speech on Christmas Day. But in the end you got excited and climaxed too early.

Inspecto · 23/12/2022 12:56

Byfleet · 23/12/2022 11:17

Oh my goodness. I suspected this torrent of stuff might come out, as your previous posts have been so odd.

I am definitely finished with this now.

@Avalavalanche @Byfleet odd to people who are not spiritually literate because it’s a different language.

And you can’t dismiss things on the periphery because that’s what may be encircling around. Periphery vision is very important, just as it is in optometry and driving.

OP posts:
Inspecto · 23/12/2022 13:08

Byfleet · 23/12/2022 12:30

...and you jumped the shark

Too right. You could have spun it out a couple more days, even included something from the King’s speech on Christmas Day. But in the end you got excited and climaxed too early.

Nope. Closing this all up before the weekend begins is perfect timing. If you checkout your local church calendar you’ll see Christmas is a very busy time of year for Christians. It’s about more than materialistic matters; it’s about commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour.

Faith makes all things possible,
Hope makes all things work,
Love makes all things beautiful,
May you have all three this Christmas.

🙏

OP posts:
toffeecrisps · 23/12/2022 14:30

Inspecto · 23/12/2022 11:12

@ByfleetSo, you believe Christians are persecuted and that the Queen should have done something about it? Christians are not persecuted in this country.”

Christianity is under insidious threat of apathy in this country - I see no evidence that the late Queen cared about solving this problem.

At a time when Christianity is under global threat due to persecution, I feel it puts greater responsibility on the head (crown) of defenders of faith in countries where Christianity is not openly persecuted. Christianity is about the unity of the whole global faith community, not just the ones in our own country (it’s not about selfishness and I’m alright Jack attitudes). It’s interconnected with all Christians (that’s why there’s charities like Tearfund and Christian Aid supporting global causes) and cooperation with other faiths too.

Charity and faith starts at home. If the countries where Christianity is the official religion cannot and will not defend the faith well, then what chance do Christians have in countries they are persecuted in? What message does the UK send to global Christianity?

In times of global persecution there should be greater solidarity coming from countries where Christianity is the official religion. And yes, I maintain that the late Queen failed the faith because she chose the cowardly line to never complain and never explain. So she does not deserve the praise she has so far had - it’s like the message in the idiom story about the Emperor’s New Clothes.

@Byfleetvery few people are concerned about this because religion is a peripheral matter to most people.

The worst people are those who want the monarchy but not the faith that monarchy professes to defend. Why should religion be on the periphery when the monarchy is at the centre?
Faith is primordial to constitutional monarchy. If the monarch claiming the crown won’t or can’t defend the faith then god might end up taking the crown and defending himself - and that might not be the materialistic pomp and ceremony that you want, but the faith (and fear of god that comes with divine power) you may need.

Faith being on the periphery for most people means they are clueless and spiritually illiterate when there are some very clear signs and messages coming from god. It is about interpretation, and so it differs like with all languages. But being a spiritually illiterate country means we can’t read well at all. Do you think being (spiritually) illiterate is a good thing? I say, spiritual illiteracy is an awful thing like any other form of illiteracy.

A lot of people with faith have quietly wondered if Corona (which means crown in Latin) pandemic was sent by god (we don’t know why, but starting at a place that it might have been god makes us question why? What is god trying to say?). If there’s anyone capable of sending a global pandemic to shut the world down it is god who has that capability. Yes, I know the virus was called corona because of the spikes that made it look like a crown. But god is aware of the power of language (literacy) - I believe god made sure the virus was called Corona and the faithful recognise this means Crown so we can investigate and explore what’s really going on.

I’m not convinced the late Queen will do as well in her appraisal with god as people assume and the press has led us to believe. As you say, faith is on the periphery for most people in the country the late Queen claimed the crown; her subjects are spiritually illiterate so the penny hasn’t dropped yet.

This is a spiritual literate article by Symon Hill: ‘Not My King!' Why, as a Christian, I am willing to be arrested for opposing the monarchy

So you think God sent a virus that killed millions of people because the Queen didn't talk enough about the persecution of Christians?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/12/2022 14:38

I'm nominating this for classics purely for the rambling batshittery on view here. It really deserves to be preserved. Can anyone tell me what the OP's point is here, assuming there is one?

Byfleet · 23/12/2022 14:47

I think the OP finally got to the point in her last posts. I could tell she was skirting round something and then she finally came out with it. She is annoyed that the Queen did not deal with the ‘persecution’ of Christians and she thinks that God visited covid on humankind because we had become apathetic about Christianity.

OP I think you realise how niche your preoccupation is and that’s why you didn’t come out with it at first. I guess there are people in RL who have told you your preoccupation is a bit odd. And you thought you’d try it out on MN. Well you’ve had no positive responses here either. What does that tell you?

User787878787878 · 23/12/2022 15:06

OP, the difference between you and I is that I don't believe that people have to be religious to have faith - or for them to want to reject consumerism and materialism in the name of a festival (whether that be Christmas, Easter, Mothering Sunday etc).

This time of year is busy for many people, regardless of religious belief.

Incidentally if you check out your local pagan and magick circles, you'll find that there are many who are very active right now celebrating Yule and the Winter Solstice. These were the original roots of Christmas before it was co-opted by Christianity to try and undermine paganist beliefs.

Regardless, Blessed Be as the wheel of the year turns again.

Inspecto · 23/12/2022 15:10

@toffeecrisps God sends plagues in the bible, like the ten plagues of Egypt. That’s where the question came from too. If there was nothing in the bible to suggest god is capable of sending pestilence then I wouldn’t have thought it could be possible that god was behind the pandemic. I don’t know the reasons why. But I wondered if the word Corona, which means crown, was a clue (and I’m not alone, I know many others with faith who have asked the same).

@Byfleet and @MrsDanversGlidesAgain You might be apathetic to the idea of Christians being persecuted but to me it is distressing and upsetting that this is happening and there is so little awareness and nothing being done. The faith is under threat. And I feel upset that the late Queen did nothing meaningful to help the faith in it’s time of need when she was supposed to be the defender of the faith and was very popular.

And is it niche if it’s a headline question in a national newspaper?

End of the world: Is coronavirus the prophesied 'Plague' in the Book of Revelation?

I am sorry if being upset and distressed that Christians being persecuted makes you think I’m batshitty. But isn’t it also batshitty that a bat started the pandemic? Everything about 2020 seemed batshitty. How is this idea different to everything else that went on that year?

Maybe you’re right, MN is not the right place to discuss something profound that requires spiritual literacy. Best to stick to shallow topics on this forum.

OP posts:
Avalavalanche · 23/12/2022 16:42

That's fucked up.

toffeecrisps · 23/12/2022 16:57

So you actually think this supposedly loving God killed millions of people around the world because of the British Monarch?

User787878787878 · 23/12/2022 17:01

If you are using Revelations to underpin your rationale, then presumably you accept the Word as being what is written - i.e. you aren't cherry picking.

In which case I presume you're fine with the death penalty being applied to those who work on the Sabbath (Exodus), that you check your fellow congregants to ensure that they don't wear mixed fabrics (Leviticus), that you don't associate with non-Christians unless you are in the leading or superior position (2 Corinthians).

If you are happy to suggest that the pandemic could be a religious punishment for failure to believe and observe, then presumably you are doing everything possible to ensure that you follow the Bible in its entirety?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/12/2022 19:18

www.express.co.uk/news/weird/1249246/End-of-the-world-coronavirus-prophecy-book-of-revelation-plague-Bible-COVID19/amp

Yeah, right. The Daily Express. That bastion of truth and intellectual rigour. 🙄

I think that headline comes under 'questions that demand the answer no.' Did they want a change from their ludicrous weather articles and thought some apocalypse doom mongering was just the ticket?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/12/2022 19:20

You might be apathetic to the idea of Christians being persecuted but to me it is distressing and upsetting that this is happening and there is so little awareness and nothing being done

What are YOU doing? apart from posting paragraphs of pointless wittering? tried contacting Lambeth Palace? although I wouldn't expect too much from Wet Wipe Welby, if I were you.

Inspecto · 25/12/2022 03:49

@Avalavalanche it is messed up that Christians are being persecuted and there’s so little awareness in a country where Christianity is the official religion. Faith, like charity, begins at home.

I see no reason why the defender of faiths couldn’t do something to raise awareness, such as working with a charity on the issue or broadcasting in an appeal. There are loads of options.

@toffeecrispssupposedly loving God

Christians are encouraged “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”; I was told the rationale for this is that the enemies and persecutors (and the apathetic) are most likely to trigger God’s wrath. God has emotions too. God’s wrath means he’s not apathetic. How can anyone, god or human, get angry with people they don’t care about?

because of the British Monarch?”

What is the most famous crown, which is corona in latin, in the world?

Stating facts: The corona pandemic foreshadowed both Prince Philip and the late Queen’s deaths and also their son’s coronation.

OP posts:
Inspecto · 25/12/2022 04:05

@MrsDanversGlidesAgainWhat are YOU doing?“

Why are YOU deflecting this responsibility away from the head of church/faith who have enjoyed power/status and onto the congregation? Followers can only do so much - and YOU know it, so don’t be disingenuous.

The late Queen had influential soft power, was very popular, had one of the longest reigns and enjoyed the defender of the faith title without doing any actual defending when the faith was under threat and in need of help. She was in a special position and had a platform to be heard and respected unlike any other person.

The late Queen’s example was to never complain and never explain. I am asking if that the righteous and brave thing to do at a time of Christianity Is the World’s Most Persecuted Religion? Or was it just easy?

@MrsDanversGlidesAgainWet Wipe Welby”

That is not kind and not fair to Justin Welby. But name-calling like that might reflect something about who YOU are.

For those who think religion and faith is niche and peripheral, did you know the coronation is a religious affair? And something being niche and on the periphery does not mean it is not valid.

Archbishop of Canterbury ‘having nightmares’ about King Charles coronation Would be interesting to know what interpreters of dreams have to say about his nightmares?

@User787878787878 Do you presume other peoples’ faith often? That’s extremely presumptuous and very rude. And Revelation is a prophecy (something predicted for the future). When there’s a plague like corona it is worth being vigilant just in case this is it.

Complacency was the church's subtle enemy, so it was important for the church to be vigilant and strengthen the few good things that remained.

God, King and Country. You can’t cherry pick God; he’s either in or out. The monarch needs God’s protection. But what happens if the monarch can’t and won’t meaningfully defend the faith in their own country or raise awareness when there’s a global crisis of Christian persecution?

Hopefully the King will understand if God might need to help those who need it most in times of crisis. As many pp have said, the King has the (fallible) constitution anyway, so it won’t matter if God is busy with other matters, will it?

May your heart be lifted in praise this Christmas for the wonderful gift of Jesus and the joy He brings to our lives. Have a Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year.

OP posts:
User787878787878 · 25/12/2022 11:28

@User787878787878 Do you presume other peoples’ faith often? That’s extremely presumptuous and very rude. And Revelation is a prophecy (something predicted for the future). When there’s a plague like corona it is worth being vigilant just in case this is it.

About as rude as you referring to an entirely valid question as "coulda, would, shoulda".

I'm out.

User787878787878 · 25/12/2022 11:29

PS it's also rude to wish that my heart should be 'lifted in praise' for something which I have explicitly told you that i don't believe in.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 25/12/2022 11:40

Why are YOU deflecting this responsibility away from the head of church/faith who have enjoyed power/status and onto the congregation? Followers can only do so much - and YOU know it, so don’t be disingenuous

Because I don't give a damn, dear - nor for all your name calling in an attempt to make me feel guilty about not giving a damn. And Welby is a wet wipe.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 25/12/2022 11:43

For those who think religion and faith is niche and peripheral, did you know the coronation is a religious affair?

Oh no, the word coronation contains the word corona! we're all doooooooomed!

This place really needs an option to post in green ink, OP would love it. I'm out, as well.

Byfleet · 25/12/2022 19:17

OP did you watch the King’s speech today? He has made it clear that he sees himself as a defender of all faiths. That’s because he is a thinking person who knows that the world has evolved.

"While Christmas is, of course, a Christian celebration, the power of light overcoming darkness is celebrated across the boundaries of faith and belief.
"So, whatever faith you have, or whether you have none, it is in this life-giving light, and with the true humility that lies in our service to others, that I believe we can find hope for the future.
"Let us therefore celebrate it together, and cherish it always.
"With all my heart, I wish each of you a Christmas of peace, happiness and everlasting light."

RamblingEclectic · 25/12/2022 20:10

In working with CoE clergy and staff, I've heard nothing but praise for her in that role. I will bend to their judgement on this issue as it's not really for me to judge. They're all very aware of the decline, I was discussing it with a Dean earlier this month - none have blamed the royal family for it. Many of them are more introspective on how the church has lost its place in the community by not having a place for many in the community, by playing defensively in their role rather than out looking in how they connect better.

We have all inherited our sense of justice from centuries of faith based ideas such as the 10 commandments. It’s hard to say we act without influence from those faith ideas because we don’t.

During her reign, we learned many things about the Bible and other old texts through amazing finds. We can point at older texts for most of the Ten Commandements that we might link with justice, and many of the others like not working on the Sabbath and not putting any other gods before that particular one, well, are they really justice? I'd say no, those are cultural concepts we see to varying degrees throughout southwest Asia at the time, not justice ones.

The fact that the Catholic Church felt the need for the title “Defender of the Faith” indicates that the faith does need defending
Or they just really liked titles back then, in part because it was part of how people built alliances.

Have we forgotten the value of faith because we’ve normalised and accepted the meaningless of the title and a title holder who does nothing meaningful to defend the faith?

The value of faith and the value 'the faith' are two separate things.

All institutions lean towards corruption, and within her reign, there were historic and contemporary issues that weren't really handled well. Just this year, we're finding mass graves from church residential schools, hundreds dead that weren't acknowledged before by any of the multiple church and state institutions involved. The value of the faith/church as an institution is only in the value it gives the community -- some it may do very well, but many including those of the faith have seen many horrendous failures.

Faith, believing in others, in community, in values - yes that can have value. We're so limited when we can't build that trust and support in each other.

faith can move mountains (that’s an idiom for a reason, btw).

It's an idiom because it comes from a quote from Jesus in the Bible. That's the only reason. There is no evidence it actually does that - that's why it's faith and not evidence-based practice.

But I wondered if the word Corona, which means crown, was a clue (and I’m not alone, I know many others with faith who have asked the same).

Corona is because of the shape of the virus. The idea it foreshadowed Prince Phillip and QE2's death more than their age is a bit silly.

Revelations is about Rome and its persecution of Christians during that time - it was written from jail with codes like 666 for Nero. Using it as a prophecy causes issues because it lists things in a very specific order - the plagues from bowls come after the seven trumpets, and last I checked the first trumpet - hail and fire being thrown at the Earth mixed with blood hasn't happened - and those happen after the seven seals...

When you pull out one thing without what comes before it happening, it makes it look like people don't really believe in it as prophecy, they just use pieces of it as a tool to try to convince others who don't know the texts that you're right and ends times are coming. People have done that for centuries and I do not think it defends anything but bad use of the texts.

Inspecto · 25/12/2022 21:56

RamblingEclectic · 25/12/2022 20:10

In working with CoE clergy and staff, I've heard nothing but praise for her in that role. I will bend to their judgement on this issue as it's not really for me to judge. They're all very aware of the decline, I was discussing it with a Dean earlier this month - none have blamed the royal family for it. Many of them are more introspective on how the church has lost its place in the community by not having a place for many in the community, by playing defensively in their role rather than out looking in how they connect better.

We have all inherited our sense of justice from centuries of faith based ideas such as the 10 commandments. It’s hard to say we act without influence from those faith ideas because we don’t.

During her reign, we learned many things about the Bible and other old texts through amazing finds. We can point at older texts for most of the Ten Commandements that we might link with justice, and many of the others like not working on the Sabbath and not putting any other gods before that particular one, well, are they really justice? I'd say no, those are cultural concepts we see to varying degrees throughout southwest Asia at the time, not justice ones.

The fact that the Catholic Church felt the need for the title “Defender of the Faith” indicates that the faith does need defending
Or they just really liked titles back then, in part because it was part of how people built alliances.

Have we forgotten the value of faith because we’ve normalised and accepted the meaningless of the title and a title holder who does nothing meaningful to defend the faith?

The value of faith and the value 'the faith' are two separate things.

All institutions lean towards corruption, and within her reign, there were historic and contemporary issues that weren't really handled well. Just this year, we're finding mass graves from church residential schools, hundreds dead that weren't acknowledged before by any of the multiple church and state institutions involved. The value of the faith/church as an institution is only in the value it gives the community -- some it may do very well, but many including those of the faith have seen many horrendous failures.

Faith, believing in others, in community, in values - yes that can have value. We're so limited when we can't build that trust and support in each other.

faith can move mountains (that’s an idiom for a reason, btw).

It's an idiom because it comes from a quote from Jesus in the Bible. That's the only reason. There is no evidence it actually does that - that's why it's faith and not evidence-based practice.

But I wondered if the word Corona, which means crown, was a clue (and I’m not alone, I know many others with faith who have asked the same).

Corona is because of the shape of the virus. The idea it foreshadowed Prince Phillip and QE2's death more than their age is a bit silly.

Revelations is about Rome and its persecution of Christians during that time - it was written from jail with codes like 666 for Nero. Using it as a prophecy causes issues because it lists things in a very specific order - the plagues from bowls come after the seven trumpets, and last I checked the first trumpet - hail and fire being thrown at the Earth mixed with blood hasn't happened - and those happen after the seven seals...

When you pull out one thing without what comes before it happening, it makes it look like people don't really believe in it as prophecy, they just use pieces of it as a tool to try to convince others who don't know the texts that you're right and ends times are coming. People have done that for centuries and I do not think it defends anything but bad use of the texts.

@RamblingEclectic Thank you very much for a thoughtful, measured, intelligent and informative response.

I was shocked, upset and distressed when I first found out that Christian persecution 'at near genocide levels' . I think work can be done to improve awareness that Christianity Is the World’s Most Persecuted Religion in this country because a lot of people don’t know. The royal family are in the influential soft power position to raise that awareness and it’s appropriate, I feel, because they are supposed to be defending the faith. Faith, like charity, begins at home.

“we learned many things about the Bible and other old texts through amazing finds. We can point at older texts for most of the Ten Commandements that we might link with justice, and many of the others like not working on the Sabbath and not putting any other gods before that particular one, well, are they really justice? I'd say no, those are cultural concepts we see to varying degrees throughout southwest Asia at the time, not justice ones.”

I found this really interesting. Can you say more or point to where I could find more?

“When you pull out one thing without what comes before it happening, it makes it look like people don't really believe in it as prophecy, they just use pieces of it as a tool to try to convince others who don't know the texts that you're right and ends times are coming. People have done that for centuries and I do not think it defends anything but bad use of the texts.”

I see. But when a plague happens on a huge scale, like the corona pandemic, it’s hard not to question if it’s god-related because the bible shows that god is capable of sending plague. Does that make sense?

I haven’t heard Charles’ speech yet. But reports so far look interesting.

I hope you had a good day. Merry Christmas!

OP posts:
Serenster · 25/12/2022 22:15

What is the most famous crown, which is corona in latin, in the world?

The papal tiara, surely? Worn by Popes from the 8th century to the 1960s.

Also, unfortunately for your theory, the term coronavirus (to describe a virus with protein spikes that come out from its nucleus) was first coined in the 1960s, and has since been applied to a number of variants of the virus that cause upper respiratory tract infections, such as SARS, MERS and Covid 19 (45 species of virus in all have been classified as corona viruses).