Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

[Comeinoutoftherain]

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

Rousette I know you are an avid fan of H&M, but please can you answer this with no emotions attached, will you be friendly and on speaking terms with your family after going on TV and bashing them? Or they to you?
even after William and Charles tried calling Harry right after the interview they went and spoke to Gail king about it? Does that scream friendly to you?

As for coming home for the unveiling ofcourse he can , it’s his mother after all , but he doesn’t need media on his side, he is coming here to honor his mother’s memory .

Just a quick correction there @queenofarles

It was William who leaked the phone call to Roya Nikkah. She published it on that weekend, and Harry had a response to Gayle. It was 'broken' here in the UK by Roya.

The BM always cuts this part away, and go on about H saying things to Gayle, when it was Roya who said it first. The 'private' phone call was announced here in the UK first.

See the first part of the report.

I didn’t think the issue was that the call happened. It was that GK said it was unproductive, thus leaking the contents of the call.

@queenofarles

I will answer. But have found, to my cost, that answering questions like this usually opens me up to a lot of unpleasant posts.

1. I am not an avid fan of Harry and Meghan. I think they have been bullied to an extraordinary extent and I loathe bullying.

1. I am not a member of the Royal family. I have not been on television (that is actually a lie, I have, but you know what I mean)

1. You cannot ask an ordinary member of the public (me) to put myself in the shoes of either a member of the RF or H&M. It's completely impossible. I have no idea from firsthand experience how the RF operates, the upset and non support Meghan or Harry might have received, or not received. I cannot answer.

Not the answer you want I'm sure.

@smilesy

I didn’t think the issue was that the call happened. It was that GK said it was unproductive, thus leaking the contents of the call.

The issues they say, is that H cannot be trusted because he will leak the private conversations out to the media via Gayle.

What is apparent is that it's not H who is leaking private convesations, as this story of a phone call came out from the palace - presumably W, since it was private. H merely corrected what was untrue. Difference is, he did not use a nameless 'source', Gayle even said it was H, right there, showing her face and name as she was saying it.

There is a great deal of difference in reporting the existence of a phone call versus sharing the contents.

Mummy I watched it, Gail did go on and say they were not productive ie we still didn’t get what we want.

Roussette I’m no public figure either , but I’m pretty certain I won’t be speaking to someone who is bad mouthing me to anyone who listens.

We’re the British tabloids hard on Harry and Meghan? Ofcourse they were, they were new shiny toys and the press were having a ball with them, I’m pretty sure things would have cooled down have they stayed longer and concentrated on their work , Meghan was doing very well with smartworks and the cooking book.

You call it bashing and badmouthing to 'anyone who listens'

I don't call it that

And I'm pretty sure it would never have cooled down
Ever.
Good on them leaving

There is a great deal of difference in reporting the existence of a phone call versus sharing the contents.

Exactly. I’m sure William would have had no issue with GK simply confirming that a conversation had taken place. It was the fact that she said the call was unproductive that was the issue.

well we won’t agree on anything Roussette .

but I’m pretty certain I won’t be speaking to someone who is bad mouthing me to anyone who listens.

Which is why Harry and Meghan are completely in the right in leaving, after the BFR badmouthed them and disclosed private information and personal conversations via tabloid leaks for years, and continue to badmouth and leak private things to the tabloids.

Fair enough queen

@ohforarainyday

but I’m pretty certain I won’t be speaking to someone who is bad mouthing me to anyone who listens.

Which is why Harry and Meghan are completely in the right in leaving, after the BFR badmouthed them and disclosed private information and personal conversations via tabloid leaks for years, and continue to badmouth and leak private things to the tabloids.

This the War of the Waleses all over again. It’s a battle for the public perceptions of one set of complicated events.

There’s is something very medieval about all this as a way to govern a country.

If the Queen knew that the reports about Sophie were false, and also knew or at least suspected that the reports about Meghan were based in truth, that would be a pretty good reason for her get involved for Sophie but not for Meghan.
But the stuff about Sophie was true. It's all on tape. The stuff about Meghan just does not add up at all, plenty of it has been debunked, and the fact the "bullying" allegations come from a single extremely dodgy source (Jason Knauf) makes them highly suspect at least.

Just by the numbers, it's getting harder and harder to believe that every single person who had some issue with Meghan must be racist.
Surely it's the opposite? The fact practically everyone who's ever worked with or known Meghan prior to her marriage sings her praises to the heavens, surely makes it deeply suspect that (with the exception of her obviously abusive father and his daughter) the entire hate and smear campaign has come entirely from a known racist organisation?

Who has had "an issue" with Meghan? Not one person is on record as saying she bullied them, only anonymous second or third hand allegations from the tabloid leaker whose job was to lead the smear campaign.

I’m pretty sure things would have cooled down have they stayed longer and concentrated on their work , Meghan was doing very well with smartworks and the cooking book.

This thought crosses my mind every now and then. But then I remember the racism, overt, covert, coded, subtle and not so subtle. In the tabloids, on social media, and even on MN. I don't think anyone should be expected to just put up with that and just move on with life.

I think Meghan expected the RF to address the racism. Perhaps that's a particularly American expectation and evidences some lack of understanding on her part, but I can see why it was difficult for her to accept.

@SenecaFallsRedux

I’m pretty sure things would have cooled down have they stayed longer and concentrated on their work , Meghan was doing very well with smartworks and the cooking book.

This thought crosses my mind every now and then. But then I remember the racism, overt, covert, coded, subtle and not so subtle. In the tabloids, on social media, and even on MN. I don't think anyone should be expected to just put up with that and just move on with life.

I think Meghan expected the RF to address the racism. Perhaps that's a particularly American expectation and evidences some lack of understanding on her part, but I can see why it was difficult for her to accept.

Yes, I think that’s the key gulf of attitude @SenecaFallsRedux

Brits know what our tabloid press is like and thinking people hate it but nobody expects to take it on and win - maybe a battle but not the war - and big institutions definitely know that ignoring it is better tactics than confronting it. None more so than the monarchy, whose whole existence is based on this careful waltz with public opinion.

It’s a bit like any marriage, though, I think. There are always mysteries, strange customs and unexplained dysfunctions.

The further you go from marrying the boy/girl across the road in your hometown, the more of a cultural gap there will be.

Marrying into foreign royalty is the ultimate culture shock, and there is nothing less British than going to the in laws and saying “control village gossip/ society opinion/ the tabloid press”.

I didn't follow the Sophie thing, but if the Queen defended her and then was publicly proven wrong, that would also be a very good reason for the Queen to be more cautious about defending someone else in the future if she wasn't 100% sure of the facts. Silly things like who made whom cry over flower girl dresses, or exactly why Meghan/Harry were arguing with the staff over a tiara's availability, really don't matter. None of this is serious enough to warrant the Queen's attention, or even Meghan's attention. Her choice to fixate on trivial things doesn't mean everyone else should give those things the same importance.

Not one person is on record as saying she bullied them Any royal staff who made that accusation publicly would be violating an NDA, hence the need for an internal investigation. I haven't heard of anyone on the UK side of her life speaking up to say she was great to work for, either, and I don't think that's because every single person she ever crossed paths with is a racist.

@RickiTarr I think you have summed it up well. I know that some people on MN like to quibble on this point, but there really is nothing in the US that equates to the tabloid culture in the UK. We have tabloids in the US of course, but they are not mainstream or influential to the extent that they are in the UK. I can see why some of the headlines that greeted Meghan were deeply shocking to her.

I thought she did address the Sophie issue, by ending the 'half in half out' arrangement. The Wessexes both gave up their other jobs and turned to full time royal duties, and it's only now a couple of decades on that they have started to get better reputations

I have no idea of what went on with Meghan and her staff, or what the expectation is of staff working for the RF. But I do know that there are cultural differences in workplace etiquette in the US and the UK. I speculate that there may have been some lack of understanding of these cultural differences at play.

Meghan didn’t understand the way the BRF work and how they don’t defend themselves much. They expected her to shut up and take the criticism the way Camilla, Fergie, Kate, Princess Margaret Etc have copped it. There was once a poll created by a tabloid about Fergie with the results saying the public would rather shag a goat than the Duchess of York. She didn’t have an easy ride. No woman seems to. It’s wrong. It shouldn’t happen but with these individuals, ignore it and then the press moves on to some other target.

Harry did not tell Meghan that the press would be coming for her. He should have. They tear royal women down to build them up. Diana was mid tearing down when she died. She was called a tart, a loose cannon, all sorts of names that the readers of the tabloids may or may not have agreed with. Irrespective of the work she did with AIDS victims, landline victims blah blah. She got it right in the neck. Harry seems to have adored Meghan on sight (good), wanted her very much to want to be his wife (reasonable) and thought for some unknown reason that she would not get any bad press. She, as an American, would not have know about the goat shagging poll, the sheikh sting, the spiteful rumours bla blah and when they started, he lost his cool.

All this is very understandable. The press are dicks. They always have been. The royal women are there to have darts thrown at them til their sainthood. And Meghan did not enjoy being the dartboard - not least because her husband was either naive or conniving. “If I don’t tell her she will be married to me before she can decide she can do better”.

Leaving was a good idea. As her husband he did the right thing in supporting her because she was unhappy and homesick and a target. If he were a more honest less selfish person he would have prepared her for reality and not implied she would be a super celeb instead of a civil servant with great clothes. The man is an immature arsehole. And now it’s everyone’s fault but his.

[quote SenecaFallsRedux]@RickiTarr I think you have summed it up well. I know that some people on MN like to quibble on this point, but there really is nothing in the US that equates to the tabloid culture in the UK. We have tabloids in the US of course, but they are not mainstream or influential to the extent that they are in the UK. I can see why some of the headlines that greeted Meghan were deeply shocking to her.[/quote]
Yes, well said. The more everybody grasps that difference, the better.

I think we are all (Brits) a bit sensitive about it, to be honest. Especially when the tabloids are held up internationally as representative of us as a whole.

All in the same timeframe in which Boris became Foreign Secretary, Trump became POTUS, the Brexit debacle happened, then Boris became PM, too.

Not a great era for international PR.

@SenecaFallsRedux

I’m pretty sure things would have cooled down have they stayed longer and concentrated on their work , Meghan was doing very well with smartworks and the cooking book.

This thought crosses my mind every now and then. But then I remember the racism, overt, covert, coded, subtle and not so subtle. In the tabloids, on social media, and even on MN. I don't think anyone should be expected to just put up with that and just move on with life.

I think Meghan expected the RF to address the racism. Perhaps that's a particularly American expectation and evidences some lack of understanding on her part, but I can see why it was difficult for her to accept.

Lets not pretend that the media doing this is some kind of cultural expected thing.
The media got away with it, because they had the money and influence. Lots of Brits have been on the receiving end, but they neither had the clout or money to fight. It is definitely not acceptable or accepted.
One of the reasons we had a big enquiry. But nowadays, with SM, the pushback is much stronger. Previously, those who pushed back were not able to be so vocal.

While I agree that with MM it has been over the top and glaring.

I'm sure you all remember Hugh Grant and the rest of the Hacked off group. Here is an example of a high, titled person who has been fighting for years.
bylineinvestigates.com/2021/06/21/%E2%80%A8lord-rothermeres-mail-on-sunday-suffers-another-humiliating-defeat-in-the-libel-courts-just-months-after-prince-harry-and-meghan-markle-won-their-pay-outs/

@SenecaFallsRedux

I have no idea of what went on with Meghan and her staff, or what the expectation is of staff working for the RF. But I do know that there are cultural differences in workplace etiquette in the US and the UK. I speculate that there may have been some lack of understanding of these cultural differences at play.

Yes, same there.

The problem is now, it feels as though many parties involved - both sides - rushed to take offence and crank up the hostilities and it’s going to be difficult to orchestrate a climb down now.