Page 3 | Any cat breeders had a kitten THIS small?

Madwife123 · 2023-06-18T22:24:44+00:00

We have 2 week old Ragdoll kittens. 6 in the litter and 1 of them is TINY. Less than half the size of the others. At birth he was so small we thought he wouldn’t survive but 2 weeks on he’s going strong, feeding well and seems perfectly healthy, except his size. We’ve had runts before but never such a vast difference. This kitten looks like it’s from a whole different litter! Is he likely to always be this small? Could there be an underlying problem causing him to be so small? He seems well so I’m reluctant to take him the vets and risk infection etc. but equally don’t want to be missing doing something that we could do to help him. These photos show the size difference at birth and also now at 2 weeks old. He is clearly growing but not catching up to the others.

twoandcooplease · 20/06/2023 22:57

I am gushing over mummy omg she is a beaut!! Puuurrrrfection 😻

Original poster

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 23:02

DrunkInTennessee · 20/06/2023 22:45

As a pp mentioned a possible liver shunt, I also work in a rescue and have some experience with that. We did have a tests and a scan done on a 3/4 week old kitten which did indeed have a liver shunt. It meant we could wean onto suitable food and then have the operation performed early. You don’t sound very knowledgable OP.

You don’t know me at all.

Liver shunts come with more symptoms than just being small for 1. Lethargy etc. He shows no other symptoms.

Secondly he is 2 weeks old. Even if he has a liver shunt he is too small to detect this, too small to operate and he’s no where near weaning age where special food is a consideration.

I haven’t once said he won’t be taken to a vet ever. I have said that right now as a tiny 2 week old who is feeding well and behaving normally but tiny, there is nothing the vet can do that I’m not already doing and a vet visit places him at risk.

Before we start weaning (which we don’t start until 5 weeks as Ragdoll’s are a slow to mature breed) we will ensure he is checked over to establish suitability for weaning.

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Original poster

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 23:04

Whiskeypowers · 20/06/2023 22:55

Such a sweet little mite
a round tummy isn’t always a good thing in kittens. It can indicate worms especially in untreated kittens or kidney issues I believe. If you don’t want to risk a visit in person to the vet how about a
house visit or a teams call?

hope he makes it

Mothers are wormed all through pregnancy every 2 weeks routinely, so definitely not worms. Plus it’s not always round. He’s just had a decent feed and now his belly is full.

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Arthursmom · 20/06/2023 23:15

Well done keeping him fit and happy so far. Our runt stopped growing around 6 months. She stunning and rules the house.
even the dogs are scared of her 😂 I’ve lost track but she’s well over 10 and probably close to 15 now

DrunkInTennessee · 20/06/2023 23:15

@Madwife123 The kitten our vet did blood tests on and scanned wasn’t much bigger. No other symptoms of liver shunt at the time other than being extremely small. Bloods showed raised levels of something but I’d have to check what, which prompted a scan. They could see the issue, the liver shunt, even on such a tiny kitten. He was weaned early onto a special food early as well as being given milk, on the vets advice which helped weight gain, so he was suitable for the operation sooner. The longer you leave liver shunts the higher the risk of seizures and other symptoms which can be fatal. You don’t just leave it saying there’s nothing a vet can do because there’s a lot a vet can do if it’s certain conditions.

Whiskeypowers · 20/06/2023 23:15

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 23:04

Mothers are wormed all through pregnancy every 2 weeks routinely, so definitely not worms. Plus it’s not always round. He’s just had a decent feed and now his belly is full.

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Regular de worming only generally removes worms active in the gut not necessarily elsewhere from the body and they can enter a kitten through the mother’s mammary glands and milk

if it’s not always round that’s perhaps less likely though.

Original poster

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 23:21

DrunkInTennessee · 20/06/2023 23:15

@Madwife123 The kitten our vet did blood tests on and scanned wasn’t much bigger. No other symptoms of liver shunt at the time other than being extremely small. Bloods showed raised levels of something but I’d have to check what, which prompted a scan. They could see the issue, the liver shunt, even on such a tiny kitten. He was weaned early onto a special food early as well as being given milk, on the vets advice which helped weight gain, so he was suitable for the operation sooner. The longer you leave liver shunts the higher the risk of seizures and other symptoms which can be fatal. You don’t just leave it saying there’s nothing a vet can do because there’s a lot a vet can do if it’s certain conditions.

I absolutely guarantee the kitten you refer to was not 100g!

He is 2 weeks old and weighs what a newborn kitten weighs. You cannot do a blood test on a newborn kitten.

I’ve been to the vets before with a tiny kitten that was born with a cleft palate. We were referred to a specialist vet as like the vet himself told me 99% of what vets see are adult pets. They don’t see tiny kittens in general and have limited experience.

The specialist vet said surgery was an option if we can get the kitten to 50Og as anything smaller and the risks of anaesthesia are simply too high. They however recommended that we put to sleep. We tube fed the kitten hoping to keep it going long enough for surgery but sadly he did not survive.

There is nothing a vet can do for a 100g kitten other than put to sleep or wait and hope the kitten survives long enough for intervention.

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Original poster

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 23:23

Whiskeypowers · 20/06/2023 23:15

Regular de worming only generally removes worms active in the gut not necessarily elsewhere from the body and they can enter a kitten through the mother’s mammary glands and milk

if it’s not always round that’s perhaps less likely though.

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We worm all through kittenhood as well don’t worry. Worming is something we are particularly hot on as I’ve got a phobia of the horrible things.

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mumtoboys12 · 20/06/2023 23:23

what a beautiful baby 💘

Proudmummy67 · 20/06/2023 23:42

How gorgeous is he?!

I have a British Shorthair who was half the size of his siblings and he has grown to average size I would say. He has always been fiesty from the off.

I don't think he was as small as this little guy though. However, you are doing an amazing job of looking after him and I really hope it goes well! Please keep us updated 😊.

Filamumof9 · 20/06/2023 23:52

He is gorgeous!

Being born this small does not always need to mean that he will stay small. One of our dogs was very very small for its breed (about a third of normal birth weight) but pulled through due to extra feeds and a wonderful mum. Now he is a very healthy and still growing 1 year old that weighs about 50 kg. When he was born he was closer to 100 grams than 200 grams.

sashh · 21/06/2023 02:19

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 18:11

@Austenland I am in contact with other breeders and am an experienced Ragdoll breeder also. Runts are common, a kitten THIS small isn’t. They generally wouldn’t survive this long. I am asking on mumsnet as it was early hours of the morning and I’m worrying about his fate and wondering if anyone has come across anything like this before. It’s not illegal to ask in more than one place you know? Perhaps you go round the whole of mumsnet telling people to go and ask someone else and not post on mumsnet? But that’s what it is for! And it has a cat section so maybe get off your high horse.

@sashh @coffeecupsandwaxmelts He’s not a dwarf. I know the 8 generations of cats behind this kitten and dwarfism (which is caused by a dominant gene) would have cropped up before. This is a repeat mating with an experienced stud. I own mum and grandmother who have both had litters and if any of them had the autosomal dominant gene for dwarfism there would have been more 10000%. Additionally dwarfism in cats results in short legs, but normal body size and birth weight. This kitten is globally small.

@LookUpTonight Did you miss that this kitten is 2 weeks old? Please tell me what a vet can do for a 2 week old kitten if there is in fact an underlying condition? You talk about the kitten with a liver shunt needing surgery to survive. Do you think vets do surgery on 2 week old kittens that weigh the same as an average newborn kitten (100g)!
I will tell you from experience they don’t! The options at this age are see how they go or put to sleep. That’s it. So a vet visit does nothing but risk the kitten catching infection, being separated from mum and risking her rejecting the kitten and achieves precisely nothing. What I have been doing, on the advice of other breeders and experience is waking up every 2 hours for the last 2 weeks to ensure this kitten latches on and feeds. Syringe feed the bigger kittens to fill them up and give less competition for the little one. Weigh daily to ensure weight gain and we have a tube feeding kit ready for if he doesn’t but it hasn’t been needed so far. The simple fact he is alive shows how much we have been doing for this kitten. A vet would have put to sleep by now!

@Clymene See my response above. Vets are very very risky places for tiny newborn kittens. A simple vet visit at this age can mean an entire litter dead if they pick up an infection. And all a vet can do for such a young kitten, that I’m not already doing is put to sleep. So no we haven’t risked the entire litter by going to the vet, particularly when the kitten is gaining weight and feeding currently.

@RandomMess Thank for realising I’m simply asking if anyone has had a very small kitten survive. That’s it. I’m not asking for a diagnosis or advice.

I’m already doing everything that can be done for this little one. We didn’t expect him to survive as they usually don’t. But he did and now it’s been 2 weeks we’ve dared to hope he might stand a chance. Waking up and latching him on every 2 hours means you quickly bond with the little ones and want to try and hope that there could be a chance despite everyone around you pointing out the reality that his chances are very slim. I thought I might get a little bit of positivity and encouraging words from mumsnet that I needed at the early hours of the morning, exhausted and watching the little one feed. But clearly not. Posters who haven’t got a clue what they are talking about have instead jumped on to attack me. Some people are so unbelievably rude!

There is more than one type of dwarfism in cats, Pituitary dwarfism is not genetic, it is the pituitary gland not producing enough growth factor.

AppleDumplingWithCustard · 21/06/2023 03:34

Madwife123 · 20/06/2023 22:13

And here is mummy who is doing an amazing job and not protested once at me following her round with a kitten every 2 hours to let the little one get some extra feeding time while the other kittens are asleep.

She’s very pretty. She looks like my girl. Is she blue mitted?

Any cat breeders had a kitten THIS small?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/06/2023 07:56

‘I know a bit about something, therefore I’m going to assume the OP knows nothing at all and I’m going to lecture her and call her irresponsible because she’s not doing what I think she should do based on my incomplete knowledge of the situation’

man alive people are weird

you’re being very patient OP. Hoping little Malin has a good day

Original poster

Madwife123 · 21/06/2023 14:24

sashh · 21/06/2023 02:19

There is more than one type of dwarfism in cats, Pituitary dwarfism is not genetic, it is the pituitary gland not producing enough growth factor.

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Pituitary dwarfism (like all forms of dwarfism) results in short limbs. Head and body size are normal. He doesn’t have short legs, he is globally small. In fact his limbs look longer than average as he is so small.

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Original poster

Madwife123 · 21/06/2023 14:28

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 21/06/2023 07:56

‘I know a bit about something, therefore I’m going to assume the OP knows nothing at all and I’m going to lecture her and call her irresponsible because she’s not doing what I think she should do based on my incomplete knowledge of the situation’

man alive people are weird

you’re being very patient OP. Hoping little Malin has a good day

Thank you I’m trying to be patient.

I think people who haven’t dealt with newborn kittens before don’t realise how little you can actually do. Many of the conditions that are perfectly treatable in older kittens are not treatable as newborns and you have to get them to survive to that age first.

Even vets have limited knowledge regarding neonatology and pregnancy as almost all the cats they see will be neutered pets. The unethical breeders who let their cats roam and get pregnant don’t take the cat in for ultrasounds etc. so they don’t see a lot of pregnancy at all. I have my cats scanned by a sheep scanner as a result as they are far more competent and accurate than a vet is as they do it all the time.

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lljkk · 21/06/2023 15:11

I wondered about a feline form of primordial dwarfism.
Either way, I'm hoping for lots more pics. :)

IJustHadToLookHavingReadTheBook · 21/06/2023 15:42

I had a cat who was the runt when I was a kid. She never grew beyond the size of being about a 3 month old kitten, but was perfectly healthy... just tiny! She lived to be 17.

WhichWitchWillBeWhich · 21/06/2023 16:37

Aww the little warrior is beautiful and he looks quite strong despite being teeny. As for mum she is absolutely gorgeous, as is your beauty @AppleDumplingWithCustard and little Baby, so sweet 😻

Come on little Malin, we’re all rooting for you 💪

ThatsACoolShirt · 21/06/2023 18:18

As a vet nurse, I can tell you that vets will have plenty of knowledge of cat pregnancy and young kittens and many will have plenty of experience too. 🙄

We see lots of pregnant cats and newborn kittens with various issues, even some very, very, tiny ones.

Original poster

Madwife123 · 21/06/2023 19:05

ThatsACoolShirt · 21/06/2023 18:18

As a vet nurse, I can tell you that vets will have plenty of knowledge of cat pregnancy and young kittens and many will have plenty of experience too. 🙄

We see lots of pregnant cats and newborn kittens with various issues, even some very, very, tiny ones.

Perfect. So tell me exactly what a vet would do for a 100g 2 week old kitten that is tiny but feeding well, gaining weight and behaving perfectly normally?

And why did my vet need to refer me to a specialist when I had a newborn kitten with a cleft palate previously?

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NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/06/2023 20:54

Madwife123 · 21/06/2023 19:05

Perfect. So tell me exactly what a vet would do for a 100g 2 week old kitten that is tiny but feeding well, gaining weight and behaving perfectly normally?

And why did my vet need to refer me to a specialist when I had a newborn kitten with a cleft palate previously?

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Probably tell you that now there's some sort of genetic, possibly recessive gene, issue showing up in the lines, it's time to stop breeding and notify all your previous customers so they don't breed it into future generations.

IwishIcouldButIcantSoIwont · 21/06/2023 20:57

Austenland · 20/06/2023 00:01

You’re breeding them yet you seem absolutely clueless. How depressing.

The cats are just a commodity for her

Original poster

Madwife123 · 21/06/2023 21:05

NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/06/2023 20:54

Probably tell you that now there's some sort of genetic, possibly recessive gene, issue showing up in the lines, it's time to stop breeding and notify all your previous customers so they don't breed it into future generations.

Show quote history

Except the parents are genetically screened for known breed issues. Have had other litters. Have a long line of heathy cats behind them and this has never occurred before. Runts happen without genetic causes you know?

But you think I should risk the entire litter dying from an infection by taking them into the vets for them to tell me something that is inaccurate? Riiiighgghhhtt that makes sense!

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EnolaJ · 21/06/2023 21:06

I have no advice but oh my days he is so so cute 😍
I really hope he is just small OP and doesn't have anything wrong, what a gorgeous boy. My cat was tiny as a kitten, and some people think he is still a kitten now as he is so small but he's certainly feisty and not remotely affected by his size!