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The litter tray

Join our community of cat lovers on the Mumsnet Cat forum for kitten advice and help with cat behaviour.

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Original poster

Spay my kitten or let her breed in future?

117 replies

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 12:00

I have two adorable kittens, one male and one female. The male is definitely getting 'done' so he doesn't spray and fight.

I'm in a dilemma with the girl. I like the idea of letting her have at least one litter of kittens but I have no experience of this and have a few worries about it.

When I was a child we had a kitten who got pregnant immediately and then rejected her kittens as she was too young. If cats are outdoor cats and my kitten comes on heat, I assume there's no way to prevent this? Unless I notice when she's on heat and keep her indoors at that time? How easy is that, do they give visible signs when they're on heat?

And what are the challenges of having a litter of kittens? I think my biggest challenge would be rehoming the new kittens when I've called in love with them all! But I'm sure there are other challenges too.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

OP posts:

New2thismumthing · 07/09/2020 14:26

@ilovesooty

Your friend might be "a very respectable solicitor" but she's still irresponsible. And you seem to have some very strange ideas about cat ownership and welfare.

This

tabulahrasa · 07/09/2020 14:27

“Exactly. And all this obsession with kittens when there are many young adult cats needing homes. sad”

I know it’s quite common in rescues for a pregnant cat to come in, all the kittens get rehomed really easily and the mum ends up stuck there for ages because no-one wants her... and they’re often still just kittens themselves

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 14:28

Read the full thread people - I'm spaying her!

OP posts:

viques · 07/09/2020 14:40

I am glad you are neutering both your cats OP.

I am not necessarily having a pop at you but I am always a bit surprised when people claim not to be aware of issues around animals such as neutering and buying off gumtree. The internet is there for a reason and google is free. The information is not protected or restricted, a teeny tiny bit of common sense, curiosity, responsibility and research is all that is needed.

thecatneuterer · 07/09/2020 14:43

Viques - I suppose you could argue that is exactly what the OP is doing by posting here. Plus it gives us another chances to rehash the issues which could just influence someone else who has also managed to avoid being reached through other channels.

Vinorosso74 · 07/09/2020 14:51

thecatneuterer yes, very good point. Charities do their best to get the message out there but they can't reach everyone so forums like this can increase awareness.
I still despair of the owned unneutered males near me!

viques · 07/09/2020 15:06

@thecatneuterer

I suppose so, but you have to know forums like this exist, whereas a bit of research before you get your kitten could easily involve Google!

Have just looked on gumtree. Over 300 listings for cats and kittens in the London area, many for £200 to £300 pounds. And that is for basic mogs, not desirable designer breeds. I imagine that the unsold ones will be ending up in shelters or abandoned in a few weeks time when their kitten USP has diminished .

I can only hope that some of the money will be spent getting the mother cat spayed. (We don't have an emoticon for optimist so will have to do.)

BovaryX · 07/09/2020 15:07

LimeLemon

I am very glad that you are having the cat neutered. This idea that you are 'depriving' the cat of the experience of birth by neutering it is mad anthropomorphism. The number of cats living brutal awful lives on the streets because of irresponsible owners is off the charts. Millions of animals killed in shelters in the US. I guess I have a judgemental attitude to people who want kittens. I wonder where that kitten is five months, five years later? People selling kittens on Gumtree deserve to be harshly judged. They are feeding a cycle of misery.

Allergictoironing · 07/09/2020 15:31

@tabulahrasa

“Exactly. And all this obsession with kittens when there are many young adult cats needing homes. sad”

With this all the way. They are only kittens for about 1/20th of their lives, and during that time they can be pretty destructive. With a cat about a year old you still get playfulness, but usually MUCH less destruction of the soft furnishings!

Plus you have a better idea of their personality that way. You can have 2 litter mates that grow up together and be completely different temperaments - that's ONE similarity they have with humans.

BabbleBee · 07/09/2020 16:16

I owned an arsehole of a cat, can’t tell you why but he was never affectionate. However, the rescue I got him from (as a kitten) thought he was younger than they’d been told by the people surrendering the litter and apparently if they’re taken from their mother too soon they don’t learn some basic social skills and never recover. Very sad.

JorisBonson · 07/09/2020 16:20

@BabbleBee it's weird isn't it, although I wonder if they're just predisposed to being arseholes?

DP found both of our girls during the course of his work, both at about 6 weeks old. Older girl is a complete dickhead whereas younger girl is the softest, sweetest thing in the world and seems eternally grateful to DP.

mylittlesandwich · 07/09/2020 17:18

Good decision OP. Also good luck with your kittens. I had one and declared I would never have another. Man they're hard work. When we got our second cat she was 10 months and much more agreeable. Kittens are cute, one of my friends has a pedigree and didn't have her spayed. She developed a womb infection and they almost lost her. You're definitely doing the right thing.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 07/09/2020 17:48

Regarding Gumtree etc., I can understand why some people would buy a cat or kitten from there as some rescues make it too hard to adopt.

I lied to the rescue when we adopted Harry and told them DH worked part time as they were funny about people working full time. Neither of us worked long hours and he's wanted for nothing since he arrived so I don't feel guilty and would do it again. I'd already decided I was going to buy a cat if the rescue said know as I knew we would give it a good home.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning buying a kitten from a Gumtree.

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 19:50

@LimeLemonOrange

Now I know the implications I'll spread the word!

I just felt very guilty sending two kittens that I love to have them operated on. I felt sad that I'm taking something away from them (fertility etc) and it's sad that they have no say in the matter. If humans were castrated or neutered by bigger animals we'd be furious wouldn't we?!

But you've helped me reframe this in my mind as it sounds like fertility is not so much of a blessing for female cats. I still feel mean taking away the boy's balls though! Poor boy!

BovaryX where did I say I felt I was depriving my cat of the experience of birth?

I don't understand why all you cat lovers don't feel ANYTHING about sending poor cats to have their balls cut off or their ovaries operated on. Are you seriously telling me those operations are nothing? And that cats won't notice that something bloody awful has been done to their bodies?

Of course they don't have the knowledge to understand what they are losing. And OF BLOODY COURSE all the arguments that humans know about feral cats, cat gang rape, awful experiences for cats mean that OF COURSE it is better to get them neutered and spayed. That is all obvious and I'm not disputing any of it.

But as cat lovers why on earth can none of you see that it is STILL AWFUL that you take your sweet little cats and have them operated on and their balls removed? Let's remove your balls or ovaries without you having any say in it and see how you like it! Ah hang on, to make it even, we'll need to give you a partial lobotomy as well, so you can't grasp exactly what has been done to you.

Since when has not being able to understand what is being done to you made it ok for others to do something to you without your permission? OBVIOUSLY there are different rules for cats and humans but all I'm trying to say is that doesn't it suck to be a cat when someone else gets to decide to cut your balls off and you have no say in the matter? Isn't that just a little bit shit for cats?

OP posts:

Vinorosso74 · 07/09/2020 20:00

Cats don't realise they have balls or ovaries I think that's the thing. As humans we are aware of the risks if they aren't neutered so we can help them reduce and remove the chance of injury/illness/infection and give them a better quality of life.

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 20:11

Vinorosso74 did you not read my post properly? It said exactly what you said re humans being aware of the risks.

My male cat licks his balls so surely he'll notice when they've been chopped off?

Don't think my female cat will know she has ovaries but I'm pretty sure she'll notice she's had an invasive painful operation. You don't need to know your innards to know that.

OP posts:

ExiledinIslington · 07/09/2020 20:14

I did and wasn't being rude nor did I give you grief earlier but I think you are being quite obnoxious about the issue.
I volunteer in rescue and these are some of the reasons I despair.

SBTLove · 07/09/2020 20:15

@LimeLemonOrange
I have empathy, I work in rescue but animals don’t have human emotions towards fertility and having young.
It’s nothing to do with empathy it’s sensible and practical to neuter, I’m sorry but you don’t come across as particularly sensible regards pets.

Vinorosso74 · 07/09/2020 20:16

Posted under wrong name but my thoughts remain.

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 20:20

I'm not trying to be obnoxious. I'm just trying to understand why you are all so black and white in your thinking.

I genuinely don't understand why you can't see that two things are both true at the same time.
Thing 1 that is true: that it is better to spay and neuter and there are many benefits
Thing 2 that is true: that it is horrible for cats that they have operations imposed on them by humans

Maybe you are so blinded by your devotion to the cause of neutering and spaying that you refuse to say anything negative about it? Otherwise I don't understand why you can't see the blindingly obvious - that operations are grim for cats as they are for humans.

Just trying to understand you that's all. As I think it's super weird and non cat lovery to not worry about taking your cats for operations. I can't believe I'm the only cat lover in the world who feels mean for taking their kittens for the chop, yet on this thread I'm being told I'm weird for thinking that.

OP posts:

ChickenwingChickenwing · 07/09/2020 20:22

I genuinely don't understand why you can't see that two things are both true at the same time.
Thing 1 that is true: that it is better to spay and neuter and there are many benefits
Thing 2 that is true: that it is horrible for cats that they have operations imposed on them by humans

Thing 1 cancels out thing 2

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 20:26

ChickenwingChickenwing

It doesn't cancel it out. Both things are true. At the same time. We do the horrible thing to the cat because it is better for the cat in the long run. But the thing we do to the cat is still horrible as they have to have a painful and intrusive operation. But we have made a balanced and rational argument and can see that the benefits are many, so we go ahead and do the horrible thing to reap those benefits / prevent the downsides.

But the horrible thing is STILL HORRIBLE FOR THE CAT. Because the cat can't understand the benefits or the human decision making.

OP posts:

ChickenwingChickenwing · 07/09/2020 20:28

It doesn't cancel it out. Both things are true. At the same time.

Of course it does. You don't because it is better for the cat. It's not horrible. It's better.

Original poster

LimeLemonOrange · 07/09/2020 20:29

The cat is not clever enough to know that though is it?

So how can it cancel out a painful operation when the cat has no idea that what has been done is better for it?

OP posts:

BovaryX · 07/09/2020 20:42

but all I'm trying to say is that doesn't it suck to be a cat when someone else gets to decide to cut your balls off and you have no say in the matter? Isn't that just a little bit shit for cats?
Limelemon

I tell you what's 'shit' for cats. Being tossed out on the street because their owner got bored with them. Being left to starve in the garden because the owner moved. Being born on the street, fighting, getting injured and dying. Because of stupid, irresponsible owners who don't neuter their pets. Have you ever actually neutered a male cat? Because you appear to be seriously ignorant about the operation. The recovery period for a male is hours. Not neutering a pet is selfish, irresponsible. Pretending that it is motivated by empathy? That's delusional.

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