Beyond Adolescence and General Chit Chat - part 3

[SpanielsGalore]

Not tagging anyone. I'm sure you'll all find your way here if you want to join in. 😁

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks I think it is over 12, but I can't find her in the database to check and can't remember her parents' names.
The average COI for cockers is 10.5%, so a lot higher than GRs. P's sire - a FT CH who has sired 90 odd litters - has a COI of 20.9%.

@YorkshireFelix I think I would struggle to get P to use one then, considering she prefers to be in a different room to me. K might like one for after walks though. She trembles/shakes despite wearing a jumper.

Latest pics of Merry. One from her first beach trip last weekend, and one of her doing a naughty. No she is not supposed to climb on the dining chairs. I think she was hoping there might be something left over from dinner..

@SpanielsGalore Jeepers! 20.9%😧I can see how it happens though...some of the 'healthiest' dogs in terms of health scores as the most inbred ones, and then they get bred even more because they're healthy...vicious cycle!

@Struckbylightning oh she really is beautiful and that photo of the beach is stunning😍She looks so unapologetic on that dining chair - almost a 'I am here. Waiting. Where is the food, human?'

In other news, I am now 2.5 seasons into 'The Rookie' and it's really good. I love a bit of 'light' police drama that I can sort of watch but not really watch. I'm going to try Seal Team One again, but I don't have high hopes. Despite the great cast list - and actors that I love - I've tried so many times and failed to enjoy it.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks It used to be said that all working cockers could be traced back to three stud dogs. My first two cockers share ancestry with my current two, despite being born at least 15 years and 600 miles apart. P has the same GP on both sides if you go back five generations.

Unfortunately successful FT CH are going to be bred from, despite higher than average COI. I guess it would be the same with Crufts champions.

I think it's nigh on impossible to find a breeder of working cockers, whose practises I totally agree with. I follow some on FB and after a while you discover they all have faults.

ETA - I might give The Rookie a go, as I have just finished Ozark.

Yea I’d learnt that cockers have quite a high COI too. I was curious last night and looked up Vinny’s sire which is 13.7%. V himself is 17.3! I always forget he has a different ‘real’ name, which I think does not suit him one bit 😂 https://www.royalkennelclub.com/search/dog-profile/?dogId=e5917792-a742-ef11-a316-00224801232a

@Struckbylightning she is gorgeous. She has a lovely coat!

@YorkshireFelix OMG!!!!! I am stupidly excited. 😂😂😂😂

V's Dad is K's Grandad. 😱💖💖💖💖

And V's Aunty (Dad's litter mate sister) is P's Mum. 😁😁

K's COI is 16.7. P's is 20.

@SpanielsGalore Oh definitely the same.

I can see how it happens, you get dogs that are proven - either in show, or as working dogs - and that combined with good health scores, makes it hard for many people to turn away from.

I know it's a slightly unpopular opinion on Mumsnet as people seem to love low COI...but I would much rather a dog with a higher COI with good health scores, than one with a lower COI with low health scores. Although I do have to draw the line at double the breed average.

I can't believe V and K are that closely related 😵Talk about coincidence and 5 degrees of separation etc

Bloody hell though, V's dad/K's grandad is a prolific bastard isn't he!? 😂Surprised he has time to go around being a FT Ch when he's got such a busy studding schedule (although obviously these days it's more turkey baster than actual effort...)

@YorkshireFelix I suppose now we know why K, P and V are all so gorgeous - clearly in the family genes 😀All we need now is @brushingboots to pop up and confirm Pupsy is also related and we have the full Spaniel set.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks How does COI work? I have just checked out K's parents. One is 18.8 and the other is 23.6! So how does she come out at 16.7?

P's are 20.9 and 13.7, yet she's a 20.

Just counted. V's Dad has sired 126 litters. Which isn't great if the luxating patella is coming from that line.

@SpanielsGalore In K's instance hers will be lower because Parent 1 and Parent 2 don't have many ancestors ancestors in common.

So their own COIs are higher because of 'inbreeding' (for lack of a better phrase) in their ancestors...but they share fewer ancestors with each other.

So for example Parent 1 has Field Trial Champion Tinkle Paws twice as a grandparent and once as a great-grandparent, but Parent 2 has Field Trial Champion Nitwit Paws twice as a grandparent.

Their respective COIs are high because of that inbreeding, but as the respective cause of their inbreeding isn't present in their mating with each other, K comes out with a lower COI 😊

With P, it'll be the opposite.

So for example Parent 1 has Field Trial Champion TinklePaws twice as a grandparent and once as a great-grandparent, but Parent 2 has Field Trial Champion TinklePaws once as a great-grandparent (or similar)and thus the COI for P is higher because Tinklepaws appears in both lines.

That's not exact, as I'd need to do some proper maths and digging...but that's roughly how it works.

Bloody hell though! 126 litters! I thought Twatdog's sire was a bit of a floozy with 70!😲

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks Thank you. That does make sense. In her fifth generation, P has one grandparent twice on the sire's side and one grandparent featuring on both sides.

K has one 5th gen gp on both sides. But just spotted one 5th gen gp on sire's side becomes a 4th gen gp on dam's side.
So they're all in bred to some degree or other.

126 is a lot. I thought P's sire was bad with 98 litters. This is why, I have said before, the KC should limit registrations for sires as well as dams. The COI will never come down whilst so many dogs can be traced back to the same stud.

@SpanielsGalore agreed - but there's so many things that the KC should do that they don't do. Could write an entire novel series about it and it would probably be longer than Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter combined 😤

I do have less of an issue with excessive studding than most - as long as the sire's are healthy and they're being paired with healthy dams - but there is definitely an increasing problem. Of course the lack of 'new' blood in the genetic pool (importing from overseas) has declined as it's seen as less ideal now. I remember ages go saying that Twatdog's sire had technically come from an overseas kennel and the MN response was like I'd told people I'd imported the Black Death. But realistically, bring in studs from overseas is the best choice for genetic diversity.

Was Ozark any good? I tried to watch the first episode a few times but couldn't get into it, but if it is good I'll try again.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks I would have thought bringing in genes from overseas could only be a positive thing. Provided they are from health tested dogs, of course. Much better than using the same ones over and over again.

Ozark does take a few episodes to get into. And there's the odd time you think 'FFS what else can go wrong?' (A bit like 24, if you ever watched that, but not as bad.) But over all, I enjoyed it to the end. I find a lot of progammes go downhill, like Chicago Fire and New Amsterdam.

@SpanielsGalore Noooooo way!!! Why does it warm my heart that they are related 😂 How bloody cute. No wonder they look alike haha. Also totally agree re the luxating patella. I thought that recently too. @TheHungryHungryLandsharks I remember when I first clicked on his sire’s profile and it blew my mind how many litters had come from him 🤯

@YorkshireFelix I know! I'll have to start calling him Uncle V. 💖 He must be P's cousin, since his sire and P's dam are brother and sister.
I always wondered which of P's lines was responsible for the luxating patella. It would seem highly likely to be that one.

@SpanielsGalore if that’s the case he’s been spreading it around like nobodies business!!

@YorkshireFelix Yes. He must have produced upwards of 500 pups. P's mum has had 21, I think. And then there's the rest of the litter too.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks What's the KC rules on breeding bitches and registering their puppies? (Sorry to keep asking you questions. But you're our resident expert.)

@SpanielsGalore 100% genes from overseas are a good thing - but people get a bit snobby about it! We saw it a while ago with that poster who wanted some sort of terrier and one of the parents was a Ukrainian import and everyone kept popping up saying how it would be very unhealthy and riddled with disease...I think they get confused between adult, rescue, imports and breeding imports.

So to register the dam has to be over a year, but under 8 years (at time of whelping). Born in the UK. 4 litters over a lifetime. Both parents have to be KC registered. The breeder must own the dam, but not the sire. The dam also can't have had more than two litters via C section. As long as that criteria is hit, the puppies can be registered...The rules are pretty awful tbh.

The fact P and V both have luxating patella and are closely related can't be a coincidence 😟But then they're both such lovely sweethearts.

I'll give Ozark a try. I can only really watch 2-3 seasons of something before I need a break or I get really bored.

Hope everyone had lovely morning walks today! Beautiful here - cold and dry😍

Morning all. Hope you’re all good. We had a terrible walk this morning, he’s forgotten everything it seems. I don’t even want to list some of the behaviours because I’m too embarrassed but the first time in months I have felt like I’m not cut out for it all! All is fine until we happen across just one dog or human. Starting to think I’m going to have to go back to long lines and walking in very quiet places at very quiet times of day

Oh I’m sorry, it’s so frustrating when that happens @VanGoSunflowers. We have had the same thing plenty of times with V. I go through a cycle of him having a great few weeks and I feel like we’ve finally cracked it, then it all goes to shit and we take two steps backwards and I spiral and think I shouldn’t have ever gotten him! I think it’s very normal at this age, but that still doesn’t make it any less disheartening.

@TheHungryHungryLandsharks Oh yes. I remember that comment. Not sure a Cruft's champion is comparable to a street dog.

Well those rules for breeding bitches are shit and make me feel quite sad. I thought a bitch had to be over 2 years old. P's Mum had her first litter at 18 months old, which apparantly is allowed, but seems so wrong. It would be like me mating K now. She's just a baby. 😢
I also thought they could only have three litters - four seems a lot.

How do all these people who breed their pet dogs get away with owning both sire and dam? Are none of them registered?

This reinforces what I said the other day about the more you look into breeders, the worse it gets. I know of a breeder - highly regarded in the dog world. Started off with one litter and did everything 'right'. Fast forward a few years and she owns stud dogs and has used them on her own bitches. Her pups are registered, so there must be a get around some how. Perhaps the males are registered to her DH. 🤷‍♀️

Another one I thought was good uses a bitch, whose eye test scores make it 'not recommended for breeding', but says it's OK as she uses studs with a 0 score. Says she only sells to carefully vetted homes, but when someone contacted her about a pup said she had two available and they could take their pick, without asking any questions. She also increased her prices when another litter was smaller than expected. Sorry. But if a puppy is worth £1k, it doesn't become worth £1.5k because it only has two siblings.

God it's all so depressing when you look into it.

It's so funny that V and P are cousins. I called V P's brother from another mother a while ago, as personality wise they are very similar. I wasn't far off.

You'll be pleased to know there are only 4 seasons of Ozark. 😁

@VanGoSunflowers There is absolutely no need to feel embarrassed. We have all been there. It's him, not you. Adolescence can be so much harder than the puppy stage. I could have cheerfully rehomed my sprocker several times over, if I hadn't been his third home already. He reduced me to tears on many an occasion.

I'm guessing he wants to greet every person and dog he sees and won't recall away. My sprocker was a shit for that. And then he'd dance around just out of reach, so I couldn't grab hold of the little git. That's when I bought a long line.

K's recall dropped off when she hit adolescence. I found calling 'this way' and changing direction was much better for her. Don't know if that would help in your situation.

Hang on in there. It will get better eventually.

@SpanielsGalore I still can’t believe they are related! I told dd last night and she lost her mind 😂 All we need now is Pupsy to be someone’s aunty and Bill to be a distant cousin on his spaniel side.

I am such a long line hater. I get so stressed from it tangling up and me trying to grab/step on it and then V’s legs get caught in it. It makes me so flustered!! I keep trying with it but it makes things 10x worse for me. I see loads of people getting on fine with them so I 100% think it’s a me problem, and I don’t think there’s really an alternative tool to use either.

@YorkshireFelix I only used mine on the beach with lots of open space and not many people. Be no good anywhere busy or with obstacles to get tangled on.

@SpanielsGalore The requirement is the breeder must own the dam, they don't have to own the sire but they can. It is allowed.

It did make me laugh once when I was looking at health checks and a Labrador had a singleton and it had been registered as the kennel name plus Costalot or something similar!